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000-J03 exam Dumps Source : IBM Sys I Entry flush for BPs - Tech. Mastery Test V1

Test Code : 000-J03
Test name : IBM Sys I Entry flush for BPs - Tech. Mastery Test V1
Vendor name : IBM
: 74 true Questions

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IBM IBM Sys I Entry

Counting The can impregnate Of IBM i On Power9 Entry methods | killexams.com true Questions and Pass4sure dumps

April 9, 2018 Timothy Prickett Morgan

anytime there is a Moore’s legislations ameliorate in processing, even if corporations impregnate by using the core or by the socket, there's cost reduce – in concept at least – for techniques utility. here is genuine if the chip maker decides to goose the efficiency of the cores or add greater cores to a socket, or each on the equal time.

in the past a number of generations of power processors used in the energy methods line, IBM has executed each. because the methods application is in line with cores, youngsters, the tide from two to four to eight to 12 cores per socket has no longer meant a consequent discount within the rate of utility such because the IBM i platform and its built-in database management equipment. however the performance of cores, via a fuse of clock speeds and architectural improvements, has often long gone up era to generation, and with the jump from the Power8 to the vigour 9, the foundation improvement, core for core and at clock speeds usually used in Power8 and Power9 configurations is somewhere between 30 p.c and 50 p.c, as IBM explained to us on the Power9 “ZZ” systems launch lower back in February. The raw performance of the structure, normalized for a socket and at a baseline clock hasten they reckon is around four GHz, become someplace between 50 percent and 95 %, reckoning on the workload, IBM divulged returned in the summer of 2016 when the Power9 structure turned into previewed to the chip illuminati.

a couple of weeks in the past, they drilled down into the price/performance of the brand new ZZ systems in foundation hardware configurations as in comparison to the prior technology of Power8 entry equipment, which which you could review here. The configured machines, which might subsist in response to the processor configurations that IBM used to achieve its industrial performance Workload (CPW) benchmark examine plus an affordable amount of reminiscence and disk, can impregnate anywhere from $12,641 for an influence S914 with four cores running at 2.3 GHz, 64 GB of leading remembrance and four 600 GB disk drives to $ninety nine,290 for an influence S924 with 24 cores running at 3.4 GHz, 768 GB of remembrance and those 4 foundation 600 GB disks. The bang for the buck on the vigour S914, vigour S922, and power S924 machines had a extremely tight latitude of between 23 cents and 27 cents per CPW. The funds on Power8 gear – the verve S814, vigour S822, and energy S824 – changed into nearly the same, but the cost per CPW on the machines had a much better and broader latitude, from a low of 25 cents per CPW for a hefty configuration of the energy S822 to a tall of sixty six cents per CPW for a midline vigour S824.

To drudgery out what the bottom software costs possess been on these two sets of entry verve programs machines, they discovered what OS/400 and IBM i application tier every configuration changed into in, after which dug round to net the per-core pricing for IBM i. They took out the ninety days of software preservation (SWMA) it is covered with the bottom energy S814 and energy S914 machines to execute it reminiscent of the relaxation of the machines, which shouldn't possess any SWMA bundled. All vigour programs machines running IBM i require that a 12 months of SWMA, at least, subsist configured to them, however they are ignoring this for now. They are only attempting to isolate the charges of the utility. They configured IBM i on the entire cores, that are All activated on the machines by artery of default birth with the Power9 iron. IBM i has a foundation one-time perpetual license cost, and then there is a per-user price of $250 a person on proper of that. They brought this person can impregnate in, reckoning that someplace around 5,000 CPWs per user is representative of the number of clients on a customary computing device in these classes. (We don't suppose that businesses basically designate this a first-rate deal CPW to clients, however their database and batch jobs could require that tons oomph even though their on-line transaction processing workloads don't.) i can don't forget when it appeared affection 500 CPWs or 1,000 CPWs per person changed into an terrible lot.

here is how the Power8 entry machines appear:

definitely, the energy S812L and verve S822L machines, which might subsist Linux-only packing containers, can not subsist loaded up with IBM i. They left the Linux-most efficacious machines in right here for continuity with the hardware pricing they did a number of weeks ago. The CPW ratings are their estimates for these configurations, and different estimates are additionally proven in daring red. On the P05-class vigour S814 computer, the can impregnate of the bottom IBM i license is $7,985 across those 4 cores, and with the sixteen users shown, the price rises to $eleven,985. This works out to 30 cents per CPW for the utility – a microscopic bit lower than the can impregnate of the hardware on a cost per CPW basis. here is the most efficacious time that occurs, so don’t net excited. (And if they added even a number of more clients to the machine, it will now not subsist real.)

Hardware charges upward thrust as machines net greater potent, but software charges upward thrust even quicker, as that you could perceive from the above desk. that you can furthermore perceive the result of the exercise of machines with loads of cores running at reduce clock speeds on IBM i pricing. truly, don’t try this. net the quickest cores which you could and net as few of them as that you could is their most useful advice.

How plenty extra costly is the hardware than the utility? That is conditional upon the computing device, however the reply to that query is often: a lot more. rob a look:

This indicates the cost per CPW of the hardware configurations they ginned up just a few weeks ago against the bottom IBM i configuration proven in this story. The aspect of expense dissimilarity between application and hardware is anywhere from 4.6X to 12.4X, as which you could see.

Now, let’s perceive how the Power9 entry machines stack up to these. here is the software fees for the ZZ methods that they profiled lower back in March:

In widely wide-spread, the software costs, on a per CPW basis, are reduce, starting from a low of 25 cents to a unreasonable of $2.ninety five. here's plenty better. but as you can perceive in the chart under, the delta ingredient between hardware and foundation IBM i pricing is soundless in the identical variety of gap, ranging from a low of four.7X to a tall of 11X:

That noted, the rate/performance advancements for both foundation hardware and foundation utility are fairly gigantic, so it's the first rate news. there has been Moore’s law improvements for both the hardware and the utility, which there certainly may soundless possess been supply the 4 yr hollow between these two families of machines. The tempo has slowed, to execute sure, however the offers are soundless enhanced. The concern is that it is not workable to net the cost of a foundation machine beneath $25,000. They soundless believe this decal fee is simply too tall compared to X86 iron, whatever they are able to learn in a future topic of The four Hundred.

connected reports

Bang For The Buck On Power9 Entry Hardware

The performance possess an result on Of Spectre And Meltdown

The Deal On Power9 remembrance For Entry Servers

inside IBM’s vigour S924 Power9 Entry device

Drilling Down Into the new Power9 Entry Servers

in the end, IBM i ultimately receives Power9

IBM Preps Power9 “ZZ” techniques For forthcoming Launch

IBM Readies Mainstream Power9 Iron For Launch

The AS/four hundred classes approach back round With Power9 programs

IBM Deal expenses present Power8 Compute affection Future Power9

guidance For The vigour techniques shop That Has To purchase Now

Power9 huge Iron “Fleetwood/Mack” Rumors

speakme Power9 With IBM Fellow Brad McCredie

The vigour Neine Conundrum

IBM i And AIX won’t net Power9 unless 2018


IBM juices I/O and reminiscence on entry power techniques | killexams.com true Questions and Pass4sure dumps

when you are a person of an entry or relatively biggish verve programs server and furthermore you are remembrance or I/O restrained, then IBM has some new Power7 machines it wants to sell you. If not, the enterprise is completely gay to sell you the existing Power7 machines, which don't support as lots leading remembrance and which simplest exercise PCI-X and PCI-categorical 1.0 peripherals.

On Wednesday, as rumored, IBM did indeed set out new methods – however they aren't in response to the Power7+ chip, however as a substitute present Power7 processors. Some are running on the identical clock speeds as these used within the machines they exchange, and some are working a tad bit sooner thanks to enhanced yields on the forty five nanometer process huge Blue uses to etch the eight-core Power7 processors.

IBM Power 710/730 server

The entry energy 710/730 Power7 server

The updated power 710 and verve 730 servers are available in the identical 2U chassis that their older siblings and nigh twins possess been wrapped in once they possess been announced in August 2010.

the brand new verve 710 has a sole Power7 processor and eight DDR3 main remembrance slots working at 1.07GHz. in contrast to the older 710 model, it supports 16GB remembrance sticks and for this reason tops out at 128GB as an alternative of 64GB. The computing device additionally has 5 x8 peripheral slots, as an alternative of four, and they elope on the sooner PCI-express 2.0 velocity that most servers exercise at the minute – they are able to delivery the PCI-express three.0 cycle as soon as Intel formally launches its "Sandy Bridge-EP" Xeon E5 processors sometime subsequent year.

These PCI gen-2 x8 peripheral slots operate at 20Gb/sec of bandwidth, twice the gen-1 slots. The traditional and new power 710s proffer the identical processor alternatives: a four-core chip working at 3GHz, a six-core operating at three.7GHz, and an eight-core at 3.55GHz.

The power 730 it truly is according to the equal chassis comes with a two-socket processor card that may lead as much as 256GB using the 16GB sticks, and has four diverse processor options, which possess to subsist introduced in matched pairs: four-core 3GHz, 4-core three.7GHz, six-core three.7GHz, and eight-core 3.55GHz. The chassis has leeway for six 2.5-inch drives.

The up-to-date energy 720 machine comes in a 4U chassis with leeway for eight 2.5-inch disks and has the equal five PCI-categorical 2.0 slots. or not it's a single-socket computer, and it may possibly only subsist configured with Power7 chips working at 3GHz; shoppers can pick a processor with four, six, or eight cores. The entry four-core edition doesn't possess a 12X I/O loop (a modified InfiniBand 20Gb/sec hyperlink) to hook to far flung storage bays, but the ones with six or eight cores do. the brand new verve 720 tops out at 256GB of main reminiscence using the 16GB sticks.

IBM's Power 720/740 server

IBM's verve 720/740 server

The power 740 may furthermore subsist configured with one or two gadget playing cards, every with one processor, and offers 4 different Power7 processor options: 4-core operating at three.3GHz or three.7GHz, six-core at three.7GHz, and eight-core at 3.55GHz. you could add one processor at a time, however the 2d one has to match the first one if you net round to placing it in.

each processor card has a sole 12X remote I/O slot and supports 256GB of leading reminiscence, twice what remaining yr's verve 740 might do. The machine supports 5 PCI-categorical 2.0 x8 slots, and with optional PCI-express drawers placing off that 12X loop, that you could add an extra forty PCI-specific 2.0 slots to the system.

besides the fatter remembrance and PCI increase, these 4 machines possess a dedicated slot for a twin-port Gigabit Ethernet LAN controller. Nothing else can plug into this slot.

On the power 770, IBM is goosing the speeds on the Power7 processors a bit of, lots because it did with the vigour 750s in April this year. The power 770 computer is made up of 4 two-socket servers which are lashed along side a NUMA chipset that creates an eight-socket, shared remembrance equipment.

final yr's fashions used six-core Power7s operating at 3.5GHz or eight-core chips operating at 3.1GHz. within the new energy 770, the six-core chips are revved to 3.72GHz and the eight-core versions spin at 3.3GHz. The maximum reminiscence on this desktop is doubled to 4TB the exercise of 16GB reminiscence, and the server nodes now possess six PCI-categorical 2.0 x8 peripheral slots.

IBM Power 770

IBM's four-chassis verve 770

As fragment of the Power7 launch in February 2010, a special version of the 4-chassis vigour 770, referred to as the vigour 780, became created with a dual-boot mode that allowed for half of the cores to subsist turned off on reboot and the chip clocks to elope relatively larger. This additionally allowed the 32GB of embedded DRAM L3 cache to subsist carved up by using half as many processor cores. For loads of workloads (akin to database processing), the doubling in L3 cache and temper clock pace enhance per core may discontinuance up in a computer that does significantly more work.

With the new power 780 launched this week, IBM is shifting the energy 780 to four sockets from the outdated two and plunking in six-core chips. So the accurate-conclusion mannequin has 96 cores, operating at 3.44GHz. The sixty four-core mannequin, which is in keeping with eight-core processors, furthermore become tweaked, with cores that elope at 3.92GHz with All cores on (a microscopic better than the three.86GHz of closing yr's mannequin) and at four.14GHz with half the cores deactivated (the equal as the prior computing device). reminiscence capability on both new vigour 780 editions is doubled to a max of 4TB.

Why not thrust the energy 780 the entire method to 128 cores and exercise full eight-core Power7 chips? as a result of that would obtrude with energy 795 income, and IBM expenses a nice top rate for processors, reminiscence, and application on those boxes.

The verve 795s scale as much as 32 sockets, 256 cores, and 1,024 threads as well as up to 8TB of reminiscence. IBM's AIX 7.1 and purple Hat and SUSE Linuxes can span these cores and threads in a sole graphic, but great Blue's personal IBM i (formerly OS/400) operating gadget peters out at 32 cores and 128 threads devoid of special patches.

by the way, neither the vigour 750 nor the power 795 possess been up-to-date with double remembrance or PCI-specific 2.0 peripheral slots. Steve Sibley, director of product management for the verve techniques line at huge Blue, tells El Reg that the enterprise decided that these machines did not exigency the I/O or reminiscence improvements presently. The vigour 750 already supported 512GB of remembrance the exercise of 8GB sticks, and it is incredibly unlikely that IBM has many shoppers clamoring for 16TB energy 795s.

the new energy programs will subsist attainable on October 21. Pricing within the foundation machines is the exact identical for the entry energy 710, 720, 730, and 740 machines – and this is so with the aid of intention, says Sibley, to execute it viable for IBM's earnings reps and channel partners to focal point on selling both forms of machines.

If it were me doing the purchasing, i might both require a box that may support the faster I/O and fatter remembrance or require a value nick if i was buying the older box from remaining year. ®

subsidized: fitting a practical protection leader


IBM power device S922: Rack Server Overview and insight | killexams.com true Questions and Pass4sure dumps

See the total checklist of first-rate rack server carriers

base line:

The IBM verve techniques S922 server is designed from the ground up for information intensive workloads affection databases or analytics. it may possibly support a number of key industry information-intensive scenarios, together with mainstream purposes, leading-part HPC workloads and evolving simulated intelligence (AI) tasks.

shoppers seeking essential compute power should soundless understand this key truth: POWER9 solutions are the basis of the realm’s first and third quickest supercomputers, the U.S. branch of power’s summit and Sierra installations.

IBM power servers are likely to possess an improved can impregnate of entry than x86 machines. youngsters, in keeping with a study by using Quark + Lepton, IBM vigour methods operating IBM I software possess 60% reduce complete cost of ownership than home windows/SQL Server or X86 based mostly Oracle systems. IBM’s pitch is that there are limits to what commodity architectures can do.

although, in case you are expecting surges prominent and don’t possess leeway for downtime, licensing prices, or occasional crashes a stronger commercial enterprise structure could subsist required.

Product description:

The S922 is a 1 or 2 socket server that presents a wide selection of core configurations and up to 4 TB of memory. Chip core speeds on the four-core are 2.8 to 3.8GHz, on the eight core are three.4 to 3.9 GHz and on the 10 core are 2.9 to three.8 GHz. the only socket edition offers up to 6 PCIe ( 2 x Gen4 and 4 x Gen3) slots and both socket edition gives as much as 9 slots (three more Gen4 slots). One slot is used by means of a compulsory Ethernet adapter. depending on what's connected, up to 3 of these slots may well subsist reserved for different functions. IBM i is just supported on the 6 cores and 8 core processors and is proscribed to 4 cores of IBM i with a software tier of P10.

power systems are common for his or her RAS (resiliency, availability, serviceability) aspects. IBM POWER9-primarily based systems are stated to convey up to 10X faster bandwidth acceleration and 50% more advantageous remembrance bandwidth than related x86 options. They additionally serve the newest in records transfer technologies, including PCIe four.0 and novel NVLink and OpenCAPI interfaces. This new server generation comes together with twice the reminiscence footprint than POWER8. alterations in the remembrance subsystem and the exercise of the newest DIMMs boost fee/efficiency.

facets:

number of processors:

as much as 2

Processors supported:

IBM POWER9 Scale-Out SMT8 processor (12-core, 10-core, eight-core, four-core choices)

Cores per processor:

4, 8,10 cores per socket

maximum processor frequency/cache:

three.9 GHz/512k L2 and 10 MB L3

I/O growth slots:

the sole socket edition gives up to six PCIe ( 2 x Gen4 and 4 x Gen3) slots and the two socket edition offers as much as 9 slots (3 extra Gen4 slots). One slot is used by artery of a mandatory Ethernet adapter. counting on what's connected, up to a few of these slots may subsist reserved for different purposes.

One entrance USB 3.0 ports – Two rear USB 3.0 ports – Two HMC 1 GbE RJ45 ports – One device port with RJ45 connector – 1x USB three.0 entrance, 2x USB three.0 rear, 2x HMC 1 GB Eth RJ45 ports, one system port with RJ45 connector, 2x unreasonable pace 25 Gb/s ports

highest reminiscence/# slots/speed:

up to four TB/32 IS RDIMM slots/up to 2666 Mhz

optimum Persistent reminiscence:

NA 

Storage controller:

S922/S924 has two interior direct connected storage connectors, an NVMe card and a SAS card

aid:

The electronic services internet portal is a sole cyber web entry factor that replaces the multiple entry points traditionally used to access IBM internet features and help. This web portal permits you to profit more straightforward access to IBM materials for guidance in resolving technical problems. The newly more desirable My systems and top rate Search functions execute it even more convenient for digital carrier Agent-enabled consumers to track device inventory and locate pertinent fixes.

My methods provides useful studies of set in hardware and utility using tips amassed from the programs by artery of IBM electronic service Agent. stories can subsist institute for any system linked to the client's IBMid. top rate Search combines the duty of search and the value of electronic service Agent information, featuring superior search of the technical serve knowledgebase.

“it is a lucid preference if you already possess a longtime IBM AIX atmosphere and want to maintain compatibility and hold efficiency. There are related alternate options now which may well subsist in a position to net you to three nines for 1/2 the costs,” pointed out a Senior manager of IT within the manufacturing industry. 

Key markets and exercise situations:

IBM verve techniques S922 server easily integrates into a company’s cloud & cognitive method and delivers superior fee efficiency for mission crucial workloads.

POWER9 is designed from the ground up for facts intensive workloads affection databases or analytics

fee:

20 core, 512 GB, $37,222. The application is costly.

“it is a product with unreasonable performance, efficiency and fiscal indices in the IT market,” pointed out an functions Engineering in the education trade. "Deployment is very convenient, however took greater than three months. It proved competitively priced in the long run.”

Server

IBM energy S922

Max Processor Frequency

three.9 GHz/512k L2 and 10 MB L3

Max Persistent memory

N/A

kind ingredient

2U

Max Processors

2 POWER9 Scale-Out SMT8

Max reminiscence

four TB

Max Storage

four TB

cost

$37,222

Key Differentiator

appropriate processing energy


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    Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World? | killexams.com true questions and Pass4sure dumps

    Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World? Brian Connors KB1KKC (W6NNABE) on November 11, 2004View comments about this article!

    It seems to me that much of the keen drudgery these days in the dabbler radio world isn't being done by hams at all, but by people working within the fragment 15 limits of the 802.11 world, dealing with antenna design, signal connectivity, and the terminal Mile problem.

    Spokane, WA is running a citywide WiFi system, and there are countless wardrivers and guerilla networkers who are contributing valuable information on signal propagation and infrastructure design. It seems to me the WiFi hackers of the 21st Century are the spiritual heirs to the tradition of packet radio, so why achieve they perceive so microscopic discussion of WiFi technology within the circles that contribute to places affection eHam? Are these people not radio amateurs just the identical as us, with or without licenses?

    Member Comments: This article has expired. No more comments may subsist added. WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! If they possess to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism!

    If you possess a public network with legitimate unrestricted access, certain they are free to tinker with it All they want to. However, just because the limits of fragment 15 are observed does not execute breaking into a network legal or ethical.

    I've got a WiFi LAN at home, and possess to elope 256 bit WEP to withhold out unwanted visitors and drive-by networkers (a neighbor kid broke my 128-bit WEP). Even that flush of security won't withhold out someone with lots of time, a WiFi laptop, and some network busting software that is available on the Internet.

    Nearly All radio amateurs are strictly legal in their operating and methodologies, and are not brothers-in-arms with hackers. Having enough knowledge of electronics, propagation, antennas, and standards specifications to crash into controlled and half-secure communication networks is certainly not anything to subsist disdainful of.

      our bands, their interference   by KZ1X on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I am sending this message via an 802.11 link, so, I know how useful the technology is. I hold a patent covering a technology key to the widespread deployment of 802.11, and I am furthermore a contributing member of the IEEE standards carcass working on WiFi.

    That said: Propagation on (and antenna construction techniques for) the 2.4 GHz band is well known and documented. WiFi users achieve not add any new knowledge in this area. In fact, they routinely ignore and violate fragment 15 with their illegal modifications to equipment, which then obtrude into dabbler radio spectrum.

    Sorry. While a minute minority of the computer network folks might become first-rate hams, most are just interested in skirting alternate, legal means of establishing connectivity. baleful intelligence is baleful news, even if it only has a 300' range. Would you question people who hack their cordless phones to double the range, illegally, to approach to your next testing session? I didn't deem so. There's microscopic difference.

    You may wish to peep at the ARRL's program to hearten experimentation in this band by hams and hams-to-be.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by TIMOTHIUS on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "If they possess to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism!"

    The computer press is struggling with ethics. many of the younger computer users learn to hack before they learn that it is wrong to achieve so. If I am not mistaken, they by virtue of the license are able to execute inescapable modifications to their equipment. The wifi is a non licensed portion of the spectrum and therefore, I believe not suppposed to subsist modified. Why is it so difficult for some folks to linger within the law.

    If I am wrong here gladden serve me out.

    Tim, ke5bhf

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K7NNG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! SIMPLE, It is not ham radio. wifi operators usually achieve what they want and crash the rules...so I don't want them around. Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple..   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tim,

    "The wifi is a non licensed portion of the spectrum "

    Check your band charts and you'll find that most (if not all) of the spectrum used by common 802.11 data is allocated for exercise by dabbler Radio.

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      Headline   by AA6E on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "KB1KKC feels they should embrace WiFi technicians."

    My reaction: I'm not _that_ difficult up for a date!

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I exercise my 802A/b laptop All over New york city.Plenty of people possess set up Free Publc Access to WI-FI.

    Many colleges possess non WEP systems.

    This one dude wired up All of Central Park for WI-FI.

    Yes, if your on a non WEP system you risk being hacked.

    802B(7 channels) are affection public water fountines.

    I am involved with a group of Hams and others that want to execute more free WIFI.

    It is first-rate for the information age, and hopefully will execute BPL undesirable.

    I achieve not condone ripping off someones system.802B can subsist free legally. Only problem is you possess zero expectation of privacy. It is not a panacea.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by TIMOTHIUS on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tom, Thanks for the info. What about the modification for the equipment? I belive that hams are allowed to execute some mods to there equipment. I am not certain about wifi? Are they allowed to modify the equipment?

    I elope wifi here at the house and affection it. I ran great computer systems for years and it is Great to subsist off the wire. I achieve however protect myself by using firewall, WEP and MAC filtering to forestall theft of bandwidth and hacking of my system. This is not fool proof but it is a layer of security. To achieve any less is irresponsible.

    Tim, ke5bhf

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W2DUG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Are these people not radio amateurs just the identical as> us, with or without licenses?

    They may subsist radio hobbyists, but they would not execute first-rate hams because (a) they probably wouldn't want to subsist forced to operate within the confines of the ham license, and (b) they probably don't possess the forbearance that ham radio requires.

    Radio communication for the sake of radio communication--that is, dabbler radio--is not really very keen to them in comparison to the applications of WiFi and the access to the Internet they desire.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by NE0P on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Are these people not radio amateurs just the identical as us, with or without licenses?"

    Actually CB operators would subsist closer to unlicensed "Brother Hams" than WiFi developers would be, and peep at how they handle them!

    73s John NE0P

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Tim,

    The ARRL bandplan encourages us to exercise one of the WIFI channels (I deem it's channel 7, but that's from memory)and exercise their callsigns as fragment of the SSID. There no reason they can't modify gear and experiment with the technology.

    WEP and MAC filtering are first-rate starts but easily spoofed. I exigency to rob a peep at my WIFI access point and perceive if there's a artery to revolve off the broadcast SSID and execute the network "invisible".

    A local WIFI ISP in my zone did a site survey around my house. 135 networks--88 wide open. Most peole set up the networks using the default settings for security. I marvel how many even bother to change the default passwords?

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      RE: their bands, their interference   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "WiFi users achieve not add any new knowledge in this area. In fact, they routinely ignore and violate fragment 15 with their illegal modifications to equipment, which then obtrude into dabbler radio spectrum."

    Ahhh, yes... Riding that tall & mighty horse of exclusion?

    - This is the very reason why they are minimized & the FCC forced us to share the band because of bratty attitudes shown here from the start. WiFi'rs are clearly putting us to shame when literally millions are using their packet technology to hump the world forward while acerbic hams sit with 9600 baud packet from 1983 & are content with it but covetous of others. If you deem holding a license is proof of technical competency, you obviously don't possess a clue or are intentionally blind to reality. There are 25 hams in my county yet there are over 500 Access Points, achieve the math rocket scietists!

    "Nearly All radio amateurs are strictly legal in their operating and methodologies, and are not brothers-in-arms with hackers."

    - You're either in denial or don't operate often. Tuner uppers, 2KHz "wedging", "nets on schedule", UnID'd comments & common absurd behavior has taken over the bands along with the ever present "What's YOUR call?" How many hams possess been caught jamming "public service" frequencies or each other? Oh yea, highly ethical hams...

    "Having enough knowledge of electronics, propagation, antennas, and standards specifications to crash into controlled and half-secure communication networks is certainly not anything to subsist disdainful of"

    - A ham license test is far from a proof of knowledge because 50% of Extra-lites can't even solder a pilot light! Appliance operators possess no WEP but I'd stake they easily become hams.

    The entire tone of this thread is rather embarrassing. How can they attract interest when it is so far from reciprocal? Resentment is no equal to respect. I respect geeks but quickly losing respect for hams because of traditional attitudes that simply haven't died although they should. Being "patient" with ham radio is accepting yesterday's standards as "good enough" for today & not planning a thrust for tomorrow. Just peep at CW!!!

    Viva la WiFi, WiMax & 802.Xx geeks!

    k4raf@yahoo.com

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA1RNE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Radio control pilots exercise radio frequencies to accomplish their task but they are not considered radio amateurs - so why should a WiFi user subsist considered one?

    WiFi allows users to communicate using a set transmission protocol with and without encryption.

    Radio amateurs can change transmission modes and frequencies which is a horse of a different color.

    by the way, try using WPA encryption with TKIP. That is a much stronger method of encryption that your neighbor kid will pull his hair out trying to decode your key from about 150 million different possibilities.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WN3VAW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi? What about the potential BPL Killer, WiMax 802.16?   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "The ARRL bandplan encourages us to exercise one of the WIFI channels (I deem it's channel 7, but that's from memory)and exercise their callsigns as fragment of the SSID."

    Word of Caution..

    You are not permitted by the rules to exercise that device to transmit internet "commercial" content over that device if it is regulated as a fragment 97 dabbler radio device.

    Part 15 devices on the other hand achieve not possess this restriction.

    you might want to rethink the exercise of your callsign on the SSID of the device, especially if your using your Wifi device for any "commercial" interests using the internet.

    Remember the "Using a repeater to order a pizza" scenerio?

    Also the exercise of any digital "encyption" code may not subsist permitted unless the code is "publically" documented under fragment 97 rules. Most encyption methods used by manufacturers for Wifi devices may subsist proprietary and may only subsist distributed under license. In other words, the encyption code is non public.

    Any other thoughts?

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Glad to perceive you got a license Brian! As you might possess guessed though, the original WiFi Systems were designed and built by Ham's. Some Ham friends of mine built the first system better than two decades ago. They installed it in the city of Cupertino. You may possess seen photo's of some of their original units, it was a cute idea.

    They used existing street lamp poles, both for their height, security, and the simple availability for power. The unit was slung below the lamps cross arm with it's whip antenna pointing down, they built a nifty microscopic power plug adapter that plugged into the socket where the lamps photo-electric relay switch was inserted. The all installation per unit took about 10 minutes each. I can't quite recollect the name of their company, and I'm not so difficult up for a date either, so as to rob the time to research it. You should subsist able to find them though.

    Isn't Ham Radio just more fun and exciting than 'war-driving!' deem about it, 23,471 MHz of spectrum using pretty much any mode you like. Wow, who wants to futz with Pringles can antennas, when they can build true radio stuff! Duh, true Ham's I guess.

    Good numbers to ya out there Bubba! Your wall to wall and tree top tall on that Pringles can!

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4NR on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Charles,

    Quote:

    You are not permitted by the rules to exercise that device to transmit internet "commercial" content over that device if it is regulated as a fragment 97 dabbler radio device.

    Part 15 devices on the other hand achieve not possess this restriction.

    you might want to rethink the exercise of your callsign on the SSID of the device, especially if your using your Wifi device for any "commercial" interests using the internet.

    Remember the "Using a repeater to order a pizza" scenerio?

    End Quote

    You are remedy about the non-commercial exercise of an dabbler 802.11 link. I'm certain the "ordering a pizza on the repeater" thought process will subsist hashed out down the line. If my remembrance serves me, that decision was left to the individual control ops rather than a blanket ruling that it was "commercial use" and not authorized.

    The ARRL is recommending they exercise the eSSID to ID.

    There is much experimentation happening in this area. I did note that WEP was okay using a published HMSS Key.

    Loads of leeway for much discussion on this issue!

    73 de Tom, K4NR

    From the ARRL Website:

    The ARRL Enhanced IEEE 802.11 Project calls for operation of the basic IEEE benchmark by licensed dabbler radio operators in the upper fragment of the 2.4 GHz band while not significantly interfering with other dabbler radio activities on that band or fragment 15 IEEE 802.11b operation in the band. Under fragment 97 of the FCC rules, amateurs are allowed to elope many times the power of fragment 15 operation as well as exercise antennas with unrestricted gain.

    IEEE 802.11b channels 1-6 drop totally within the 2.4 GHz ham band. They are recommending that channels 2-5 subsist used for IEEE 802.11b operation as they achieve not meddle with other classic dabbler radio operations in the band and are not on channels widely used by fragment 15 operations. They recommend that channel 5 subsist used as the primary channel for common ARRL 802.11 network operation.

    SNIP

    ...we are working on some IEEE 802.11b issues such as All station exercise "hsmm" as their SSID, and their dabbler callsign in any second SSID (eSSID) or node/AP name.

    Source: http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/project.html

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by AB2M on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Actually, this assertion regarding "unspecified codes" is a microscopic off. The "codes" referred to here are essentially the "protocol" - i.e. Baudot, PACTOR, GTOR, etc. $$97.309(b) says (in part):

    "RTTY and data emissions using unspecified digital codes must not subsist transmitted for the purpose of obscuring the signification of any communication."

    Now, WEP (or any other encryption) would subsist an unspecified code. Since it would subsist easily argued that it is being used to obscure the signification of the communication (even if you argued that it was for access control), I am confident it would subsist institute in violation of $$97.309(b).

    I drudgery in the WiFi Security space professionally; there is no solution that will adequately protect a "Part 97 WiFi" installation from malicious use, much as there is no mechanism to protect a repeater from malicious use. MAC filtering and disabling the SSID broadcasts are really All you can bring to endure while soundless remaining compliant with fragment 97, and, as already mentioned, are bypassed trivially.

    The true dissimilarity here is that unlike a repeater system, the common public is using the identical gear as they are; thereby exposing us not only to the usual repeater-jammer type, but to the computer hacker that doesn't play in the classic RF world. Therefore, your interference (hacking) probability is sky-high from the outset.

    I don't possess any solutions to proffer at this time. From a security point of view, the only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF affection would subsist called "security by obscurity". Remove that, and you open yourself up to the identical miscreants that possess made the Internet a security nightmare. Or, to analogize in perhaps more intimate terms, it's affection having the next FRS service share the 2m band.

    73, Joe AB2M

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by G0GQK on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Are these suggestions in the honest spirit of dabbler radio ? achieve you honestly believe that that the World of WiFi is the next step forward for ham radio ?   RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "the only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF affection would subsist called 'security by obscurity'..."

    This is a very powerful definition of where they are in relation to the entire fragment 15 movement within their own country.

    Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can possess much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.

    It it weren't for 802.11 becoming so widespread, where would hams possess to squat & using what?

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Some people display to believe that ham radio is simply a utility by which to connect computers. "Radio" is not the goal; instead, talking between computers is. To me, that makes computers the hobby, not ham radio. And for many of those people, if not most of them, if a better, faster, cheaper method of connecting computers is available, they'll exercise it.

    We exigency to pick if ham radio is a hobby, or simply a means of conducting some other hobby, i.e., computers and the internet. If it is a utility, eventually it will subsist governed as such. If they figure that 300 foot communication by WiFi is the hobby of ham radio, then so are cordless phones, garage door openers, home security systems, keyless entry to automobiles, remote operated house lights, and PLC.

    Ed

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<he only security their AX.25 packet networks, repeaters, and HF affection would subsist called 'security by obscurity'..."

    This is a very powerful definition of where they are in relation to the entire fragment 15 movement within their own country.

    Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can possess much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.

    It it weren't for 802.11 becoming so widespread, where would hams possess to squat & using what?>>

    What about 20 meters CW?

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! PS. K4RAF is not institute in the QRZ database.

    Ed

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! CB or FRS - is a "radio" hobby.

    ARS on the other hand is about communications regardless of the limitless spectrum of operating modes available for us to use.

    "Voice" communication is only a tiny aspect of the bigger picture of dabbler communications.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by GHOSTRIDERHF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I achieve Ham radio..

    I furthermore affection to wardrive and read other peoples emails that don't secure their wireless routers.....

    Isn't life frosty ....

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KE7CDV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I'm All for encourging WiFi users to become Hams, but realistically I'm not so certain they possess that much to proffer them. As far as I can tell, WiFi enthusiasts are primarily motivated by the crave to possess wireless Internet access at 'reasonable' speeds (these days signification at least 128kbps, and preferably more affection some-Mbps). The hardware experimentation is limited due to the complexity of the radios. At the discontinuance of the day, these folks want to subsist able to surf the Internet and soundless read their e-mail, execute purchases on Amazon.Com, and, yes, potentially visit porn sites as they wish without anyone telling them otherwise.

    Some of the people doing All this are interested in the technical aspects of, e.g., radio design, modulation, propagation, etc., and dabbler radio has something to proffer them there. On the other hand, when it comes to Internet connectivity -- their main goal -- dabbler radio tends to subsist far more restrictive and much, much slower than what they already have.

    ---Joel KolstadKE7CDV

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W5HTW on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! However, K4RAF IS in the FCC database. OK, marvel why QRZ doesn't list him? Their preference or his? I am always suspicious of people who want to metamorphose ham radio into the hobby of computer, but in this case, he IS a ham, so I possess to retract my implication!

    ED

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! ED

    I'm not moaning at you directly :

    People exigency to realise that the QRZ data foundation is an independant web site. People can pick wether or not they enter thier own details to it.

    Don't you guys possess a facility to peep up calls on the FCC site?

    Best wishes

    SteveG7HEU / M0HEU.

    I'm not 'knocking' QRZ either and I'm gay to possess my entry there.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC9AGG on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! amen, discontinuance of thread...good discussion...it's not "big brother" watching, it's anybody and everybody getting any information they want via the internet...all you possess to achieve is peep me up!!( possess a peep prove for yourself).   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by N2WEC on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What the Hell is "WiFi"? I possess yet to perceive a first-rate explanation of just what it is. Whats the deal?   RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > PS. K4RAF is not institute in the QRZ database

    Really? and the fact that Fred is deliberately excluding licensed hams from his database is pertinent to K4RAF's arguments in what way?

    (PPS: K4RAF *is* in the FCC database.)

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! N2WEC

    For you:

    http://www.lordpercy.com/wifi_explained.htm

    Steve.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by AE6IP on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > What the Hell is "WiFi"?

    It's market speak. WiFi = "Wireless Fidelity". Means the network interface between computers is radio based, rather than wires.

    A lot of local-area networks (LANs) now exercise 802.11b benchmark RF networks. This is Great for edifice zone nets and laptop users, since the laptop can subsist connected without being physically teathered. Means I can walk into a meeting with my laptop and soundless subsist on line.

    802.11b is only one of a family of 802.11 wireless protocols. These days 802.11g, which is faster, is becoming popular.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W2EV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi experimenters of 2004 are not unlike wireless experimenters of 1904. Wouldn't it subsist frosty if, instead of treating them affection bandits or undesirables, they institute a artery to embrace and Elmer them to their (and society's) benefit?

    Think in new ways. This could work.

    Ev Tupis, W2EV

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! KD5RGJ

    Either you are experiencing QRM or you should hit the 'refresh' button on your browser.

    Steve.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by G7HEU on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W2EV / Ev

    It's a microscopic affection short wave listening for the 21st centuary:

    http://news.zdnet.co.uk/internet/0,39020369,2118000,00.htm

    Steve

      WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K4RAF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Just did a wardrive this afternoon, using a 7dB magnet mount & a 200mW Senao card:

    Here in rural South Central Virginia, my county has 25 active hams at the most, yet I logged 155 Access Points in just 1 of 5 towns. 11 were WEP'd. 75% were defaulted to channel 6 & no changes made to anything. That is no one's vice but the "system administrator" since only 2 sites actually proffer open access (the library & a car dealer)

    ?QRZ? Oh gladden feel free: k4raf@yahoo.com

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! That warchalking article from London was very keen Steve.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W6NNABE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, now that I've seen some of the responses, I should give my own position. (Note that I exercise "hack" in the nonintrusive sense -- wifi hackers are people trying to net the most out of 802.11 equipment, not necessarily trying to crash security.)

    What it comes down to is this -- radio is mainly about communications. What the wifi hackers are doing is finding ways to net a miniscule signal to propagate as far and as effectively as possible, and to that discontinuance they're bringing new interest to microwave engineering. They're the ones doing the homebrew antenna projects, trying to figure out how to milk that terminal dB of gain out of an antenna; essentially, they're trying to net the most out of microwave QRP. And they're doing All that with type-accepted off-the-shelf equipment.

    Okay, so it's only one mode, a profile of packet radio. But I soundless deem there's enough ingenuity and original thinking going on to accept the wifi hackers.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AA6YQ on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There's an terrible lot of painting with broad brushes going on here. Most people involved in wireless networking aren't hackers any more than most hams are QRMers. Yes, both communities are plagued by a minute number of sociopaths and poseurs, but we've suffered similars fools since the dawn of telecommunications.

    There are huge opportunities for hams to innovate with wireless technology, but connecting consumers to the internet isn't one of them; fragment 97 precludes this, and anything new would require vast differentiation to gain mind-share. But mesh networking, peer-to-peer protocols, compression schemes, location determination -- All of these could subsist pursued by hams with cheap off-the-shelf hardware operating under fragment 97 on dabbler bands.

    Most of the communications revolution is in front of us, not behind us.

    73,

    Dave, AA6YQ

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W6NNABE on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I exercise "hacker" in the sense of someone who likes to achieve keen things with the equipment. It's actually something of a compliment in the computer world, and that sense (more or less the original sense of the word) is coming back somewhat. I mention directly to the O'Reilly title Wireless Hacks, whose hacks are All about things you can achieve with your 802.11 installation and how to achieve them and nothing to achieve with trying to compromise someone else's network.   RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W6NNABE, I don't add up to this as a 'put down' but, how traditional are you? I am thinking that your just not traditional enough, or maybe not experienced enough, to peep at "RF" as a widely dynamic engineering pursuit.

    Thats frosty though! It's first-rate that you are seeking broad perspective. I just deem you exigency a microscopic more experience.

    No harm dog, I'm up with it (or is that I'm down with it)!

    .- .-. ____ . ____ de John

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AB0SF on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! After reading the majority of the postings on this thread, I'm embarrassed to admit that I actually wasted the time to obtain my dabbler Radio License. Now I possess a better understanding why my colleagues give me grief about being a Ham. Their image to the comfort of society totally sucks at the present time.

    Don't net me wrong, I affection this hobby profusely, but this narrow-minded, holier-than-though crap has got to travel to the wayside, folks, lest they wither away into a sidebar in the history books.

    While companies affection Intel are producing 10 GHz xvcrs the size of a microprocessor, what are they doing? Flaming people who possess an interest in a inescapable aspect in radio but who aren't hams. net off your high-horses, and peep at this as a marketing opportunity. There is a direct correlation between today's crackers (They're certainly not hackers.) and tomorrow's hams. Let's subsist honest to the dabbler Tradition and prove them the way, not their nostrils. possess fun. I hope your boat anchor keeps you warm this winter.

    P.S. By the way, the overwhelming majority of War-Drivers are honest to the hacker-ethic. They merely hunt out the networks and argue their potential flaws. No intentional connection, no intentional "theft of service," no breaking into computers on the wireless networks' network. Don't assume everyone enjoying this niche hobby is a malicious fool affection the media stories affection to point out.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Let's clarify things ...

    From "The Jargon File" published by Eric S. Raymond:

    <i>hacker: n.

    [originally, someone who makes furniture with an axe]

    1. A person who enjoys exploring the details of programmable systems and how to stretch their capabilities, as opposed to most users, who prefer to learn only the minimum necessary. RFC1392, the Internet Users' Glossary, usefully amplifies this as: A person who delights in having an intimate understanding of the internal workings of a system, computers and computer networks in particular.

    2. One who programs enthusiastically (even obsessively) or who enjoys programming rather than just theorizing about programming.

    3. A person capable of appreciating hack value.

    4. A person who is first-rate at programming quickly.

    5. An expert at a particular program, or one who frequently does drudgery using it or on it; as in ‘a Unix hacker’. (Definitions 1 through 5 are correlated, and people who appropriate them congregate.)

    6. An expert or enthusiast of any kind. One might subsist an astronomy hacker, for example.

    7. One who enjoys the intellectual challenge of creatively overcoming or circumventing limitations.

    8. [deprecated] A malicious meddler who tries to learn sensitive information by poking around. Hence password hacker, network hacker. The remedy term for this sense is cracker.</i>

    Compare with:

    <i>cracker: n.

    One who breaks security on a system. Coined ca. 1985 by hackers in defense against journalistic misuse of hacker (q.v., sense 8). An earlier attempt to establish worm in this sense around 1981--82 on Usenet was largely a failure.

    Use of both these neologisms reflects a sturdy revulsion against the theft and vandalism perpetrated by cracking rings. The neologism “cracker” in this sense may possess been influenced not so much by the term “safe-cracker” as by the non-jargon term “cracker”, which in Middle English meant an obnoxious person (e.g., “What cracker is this identical that deafs their ears / With this abundance of surplus breath?” — Shakespeare's King John, Act II, Scene I) and in modern colloquial American English survives as a barely gentler synonym for “white trash”.

    While it is expected that any true hacker will possess done some mischievous cracking and knows many of the basic techniques, anyone past larval stage is expected to possess outgrown the crave to achieve so except for immediate, benign, practical reasons (for example, if it's necessary to net around some security in order to net some drudgery done).

    Thus, there is far less overlap between hackerdom and crackerdom than the mundane reader misled by sensationalistic journalism might expect. Crackers mind to assemble in small, tight-knit, very secretive groups that possess microscopic overlap with the huge, open poly-culture this lexicon describes; though crackers often affection to record themselves as hackers, most honest hackers deem them a divorce and lower profile of life. An simple artery for outsiders to spot the dissimilarity is that crackers exercise grandiose screen names that conceal their identities. Hackers never achieve this; they only rarely exercise noms de guerre at all, and when they achieve it is for panoply rather than concealment.

    Ethical considerations aside, hackers figure that anyone who can't imagine a more keen artery to play with their computers than breaking into someone else's has to subsist pretty losing. Some other reasons crackers are looked down on are discussed in the entries on cracking and phreaking. perceive furthermore samurai, dark-side hacker, and hacker ethic. For a portrait of the typical teenage cracker, perceive warez d00dz.</i>

    I deem myself a hacker because I drudgery on open source software build knotty websites. I possess no interest in defacing or breaking into systems. Ham radio is hacker culture before there were computers. They possess convieniently forgotten that fact. Back to your regular eHam discussion thread. Troll on!

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Where are All the Peeping Toms these days?? Riding around town in a beat up Escort with a powerful 200mw card and a magmount trying to read other folks email that's where. "Wardrive"-- more affection pencil neck geek looking at somebody's squalid underwear.   RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by KB1JCY on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote>Where are All the Peeping Toms these days?? Riding around town in a beat up Escort with a powerful 200mw card and a magmount trying to read other folks email that's where. "Wardrive"-- more affection pencil neck geek looking at somebody's squalid underwear.</quote>

    You've failed to execute the distinction between those who achieve it for the technical challenge. I've done wardriving for the simple intelectual curiosity of understanding propogation on 2.4 gig. Not everyone is reading your spam, er I mean, mail.

    Listen, wardrivers and 802.11b tinkerers possess the radio bug. They are snoopy about learning how radio works. Why are screwing the pooch by showing their uglier side and losing a captive audience?

    I've met some script kiddies and wannabes. They turned into true techies because somebody took the time to prove them The right Path.

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by AD7BK on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! So if they used enlighten channle 3 and with their ham ticket can they elope more than the fragment 15 max? affection 50 watts or even 100 watts? And would they subsist able to exercise it with WEP? Since fragment 97 states they can't exercise code, chiphers, or other means of obscuring the intent of the transmission.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by N5BSD on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! [quote]If they possess to HACK into that Spokane WiFi network then these "wardrivers and guerilla networkers" are NOT "radio amateurs" through their actions, and are NOT spiritual heirs to anything except the long-standing traditions of theft and vandalism! [/quote]

    Most 'WarDrivers' simply map networks and upload the data to databases I myself possess done this to perceive what is around my zone or between here and Austin when I travel there (TONS of 2WIRE nodes on the default channel :| )

    Wardriving is not doing any illegal or shady really. now breaking wep keys and accessing networks with out license from the network owner is something entirely different. So gladden achieve not lump All wardrivers in to the category of crackers, phreakers and the comfort who achieve harm in their practices. To achieve this would subsist affection proverb All Hams are traditional men who achieve not achieve anything but harp about new technology and only exercise outdated technology for nothing more than a hobby rehearse that should possess long since been set to pasture. Since they know this is not so, gladden achieve not over generalize.

    That is just my two cents worth of rant. Thanks for the bandwidth.

    73 All

    JohnN5BSD

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wardrivers definetly possess the "radio bug"

    They are interested in signals and how far they can propogate. Hackers on the other hand is a totally different matter.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KE7CDV on November 11, 2004 Mail this to a friend! [I'm quoting a lot of different people here, sorry for the confusion this will cuause]

    >WiFi experimenters of 2004 are not unlike wireless>experimenters of 1904.

    Mmm... I deem there's one titanic difference: In 1904, the medium 'wireless experimenter' had a decent shot at significnatly advancing the world's collective knowledge about wireless communications. In 2004, while it's certainly not _out of the question_ that a WiFi experimenter would achieve so, it's _far_ less likely: WiFi is already built on top of _very_ knotty communication techniques. The simple fact is that relatively few people understand that complexity, and hence the likelihood of increasing knowledge in the are is greatly diminished.

    >Wouldn't it subsist frosty if,>instead of treating them affection bandits or>undesirables, they institute a artery to embrace and Elmer >them to their (and society's) benefit?

    I don't deem anyone's suggested treating them affection bandits, we're trying to figure out how to best attract them to dabbler radio -- if there's a point in doing so.

    >What it comes down to is this -- radio is mainly>about communications. What the wifi hackers are >doing>is finding ways to net a miniscule signal to>propagate as far and as effectively as possible, and>to that discontinuance they're bringing new interest to>microwave engineering.

    Yes.

    >They're the ones doing the>homebrew antenna projects, trying to figure out how>to milk that terminal dB of gain out of an antenna;>essentially, they're trying to net the most out of>microwave QRP.

    The problem is that it's one heck of a lot harder to figure out whether or not you're actually making improvements to that microwave QRP system when your main indicator is some highly filtered 'signal strength' indication from software on a PC. I deem the dabbler radio microwave guys possess it right in that they start with spectum analyzers or at least CW when they're trying to execute system improvements -- it gives much more immediate feedback.

    Look at the specifications on www.cantenna.com for their main product:

    Frequency: 2400-2500 MHzGain: 12 dbiBeam Width: Approx. 30 degreesImpedance: 50 OhmMax input: 50 WattsVSWR: <1.5:1 avg.

    Uh huh. What's the polarization? What's the shape of that beam -- is it symmetrical or not? Since when achieve people talk about 'average' VSWRs and not maximums?

    These guys are not going to subsist submitting papers to the IEEE any time soon. :-) There's nothing wrong with that, but they're really in a different league than the W7PUAs and W8JK's of the world; it gets back to the concept that, no, these guys are not to modern communications what wireless experimenters were in 1904.

    >And they're doing All that with type->accepted off-the-shelf equipment.

    Well, not always! :-) There's a thriving market for 2.4GHz amplifiers out there, and I doubt a lot of them ever went through kind acceptance.

    >P.S. By the way, the overwhelming majority of War->Drivers are honest to the hacker-ethic. They merely>seek out the networks and argue their potential>flaws.

    I deem most War Drivers are driven (pun unintended) by the crave to check their e-mail every 10 minutes and brag to their buddies about how many open access points they found. benchmark teenager-crowd motivation for doing just about anything -- being popular! I achieve harmonize that most of it is perfectly benign. (Somewhat affection 'stealing a kiss' from a woman many decades ago, before their cultural decided that that always constitute sexual harassment and will likely leave you in jail.)

    I'm All for encouraging WiFi'ers to connect the ranks of dabbler radio, it's just unclear to me exactly what _we_ possess to proffer them. Regulations prohibit the main thing they're after -- wireless Internet access who no restrictions on the data being transferred, including whether or not it's encrypted. I will buy the controversy that there's a lot that dabbler radio could give to the WiFi'ers who are interested in propagation at 2.4GHz.

    ---Joel

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by N5PVL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Quote:-------------------------> PS. K4RAF is not institute in the QRZ database

    Really? and the fact that Fred is deliberately excluding licensed hams from his database is pertinent to K4RAF's arguments in what way?

    (PPS: K4RAF *is* in the FCC database.)-------------------------

    Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll QRZ, or who panoply a sturdy anti-ham attitude.

    Nuff said.

    Charles, N5PVL

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AB2RC on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! " PS. K4RAF is not institute in the QRZ database."

    it is listed in the fcc uls database.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KB9YZL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well………….In scanning this thread, I perceive at least one first-rate thing coming out of this discussion: The “Holier-Than-Thou” press now has a choice!

    Whenever they’re emotion particularly vitriolic, they can either bash the “CB Crowd” (the traditional standby), or the new “WI-FI Bunch”…………And they don’t even possess to change their rhetoric! (You know….”Lazy”, “Ignores the Rules”, “Illegal Operation”, yada-yada-yada, blah-blah-blah.)

    Remember:…. Variety is the Spice of Life!

    Kent CarrollKB9YZL“Appliance Operator”

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K4NR on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Quote:

    And would they subsist able to exercise it with WEP? Since fragment 97 states they can't exercise code, chiphers, or other means of obscuring the intent of the transmission.

    End Quote

    From the ARRL:

    Quote:

    While IEEE 802.11b allows WEP, an encryption algorithm, dabbler Radio transmissions are characterized as being an open media. That is, dabbler radio operators expect and assume that their transmissions are being listened to around the world with no presumption of privacy. And, the FCC even mandates that hams will not encode/encrypt to obscure meaning.

    End Quote

    I thought I read something about using a standardized WEP protocol at http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/wep.html but did not possess time to achieve any further research.

    I furthermore institute the following with seems to contradict the first:

    Quote:

    Thus, the HSMM Working Group respectfully asks the ARRL Board of Directors for theirsupport of this needed regulatory change and urges the Board to support the development andfiling of a Notice of Proposed Rulemaking (NPRM) permitting the exercise of encryption and strongsecurity protocols on domestic transmissions above 50 MHz.

    End Quote

    Source: http://www.arrl.org/hsmm/ofdm/WhitePaper7.pdf

    I furthermore read that there is some experimentation happening outside of the 2.4 gigahertz band.

    73 de Tom, K4NR

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K8MHZ on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll QRZ, or who panoply a sturdy anti-ham attitude.>

    As many, or more, others possess voluntarily left QRZ due to Fred's attitude. Fred has a right to achieve what he wants, of course, but his attitude has become very narrow minded and monocratic resulting in unexplained banning and guilt by association.

    QRZ has now become a reflection of Fred's morals. eHam is soundless the best situation to net All the views on a topic as it remains a honest open forum.

    The QRZ database is incomplete, as it only includes hams that possess not treaded on Fred's frangible psyche.

    Now, back to their original subject...WiFi

    I possess to admit that I am not up on WiFi. Their city doesn't possess it, but the city to the south of us does.

    The question of whether or not they should embrace WiFi pioneers is a first-rate one, but what about hams taking on WiFi as a new ground for exploration? The Internet was productive ground and has been used by hams as a very first-rate instrument (anyone disagreeing will possess to achieve so by sending me traffic on the ARES nets. convoke K8MHZ QTH Muskegon, Michigan USA, or by snail mail, as a response on the Internet that hams don't exercise it would subsist considered silly :) ) and I deem that WiFi would subsist Great putty in the hands of skilled dabbler 'sculptors'.

    I contacted the VP of the wireless provider in the city that has it. It is about 16 miles to the nearest antenna. I asked if he minded if I tried edifice a tall gain antenna to try to net into his system from here. He not only liked the idea, he told me what types of gear people were using to net the best coverage. He furthermore was interested in learning of my progress. When I first called him, I knew even less than I know now about WiFi but he filled me in the best he could.

    Today's hams may not subsist able to build useable gear out of discarded trinkets (some can! I am talking about the medium ham) but they know how to build tall gain antennas, they know a microscopic about probagation, they can achieve frosty things affection bounce signals, execute computer programs to revolve laptops into repeater controllers, etc. I deem if today's ham tackled WiFi affection they did the Internet, WiFi would subsist so widespread that BPL would possess no marketable value.

    Granted, WiFi exploration is no situation for someone that thinks HF QRP CW is the reply to every conceivable question, but it is fertile, nearly untilled ground for the advancement of radio.

    We exigency to realize that digital radio is here to stay. It is not just used for text comms anymore. The benefits of digital voice communications are demonstrated by digital cell phones. achieve a microscopic research. My Nextel can hit a tower 6 miles away from my basement with 600mW on a daily basis. Try that with a handheld. Analog voice systems will soon become a thing of the past in paid for communications. I assume it will linger with ham radio for another century.

    Ham radio was once the forefront of communication exploration. I tocsin that they are heading toward becoming microscopic more than a museum of same. They exigency to incorporate tall hasten digital communications into their bag of tricks and WiFi seems to subsist the situation to achieve it.

    Operators in their zone possess been struggling with Packet radio since before I got my ticket. To this day they can't provide for portable stations without a tall failure rate. How can this compete with tall hasten Internet? It can, but it takes more tech savvy than I have. Why not replacing packet with tall hasten 2.4 gig digital Internet comms? The faculty to transmit great amount of data, including pictures, in a short time very reliably is what people require today. Amatuer radio operators possess the license and skill to subsist able to achieve it without a utility conncection, if they pick to supersede their digipeaters with tall hasten 2.4 gig repeaters. Since they would soundless subsist sending the identical kind of comms that they achieve with other modes, they would possess no reason to struggle with encryption. I deem it would subsist very impressive to most anyone to subsist able to exercise ham radio as a totally wireless replacement for parts of the Internet.

    But then, what achieve I know? I possess been struggling with CW for years and my brain keeps trying to execute pictures out of it...

    Stupid brain!!

    Anyway, I deem WiFi or similar could subsist a saving grace for amateurs.

    And for the handful of you guys that will recommend me to Just Learn the Code...Hey, I'm trying! I will net it, but I a) possess microscopic exercise for it other than passing my ham tests and b) don't possess much time to achieve it because I expend too much time doing stuff affection eHam and regular ham and drudgery and elope the kid around and clean up dog...

    I'll cease there and say

    73,

    Mark K8MHz

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K3ESE on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What would my wife enlighten if she saw me embracing a WiFi technician...?   RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K8MHZ on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <What would my wife enlighten if she saw me embracing a WiFi technician...? >

    Wife...Wifi

    You could recommend her it was a spelling error!!

    K8MHz

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "I deem if today's ham tackled WiFi affection they did the Internet, WiFi would subsist so widespread that BPL would possess no marketable value."

    This has been a point of mine since BPL showed up on the map long ago. I soundless perceive BPL as DOA, just peep at SBC FTTX project, circumstantial today on dailywireless.org, which even mentions developing a "system on a chip". You can learn All about 802.11x, 802.16x & 802.2x wireless on that site.

    Where has All the experimentation spirit gone? Having a license doesn't add up to you know which artery the signal comes out of the Pringles can!

    Now instead of considering someone's opinion, research, savor & personal perspective, the kneejerks elope to peep up your call? How childish...

    This all thread says so much about their current crave to "advance the art".

    ZZZzzzzzzzzzz

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by WA3KYY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "I've got a WiFi LAN at home, and possess to elope 256 bit WEP to withhold out unwanted visitors and drive-by networkers (a neighbor kid broke my 128-bit WEP). Even that flush of security won't withhold out someone with lots of time, a WiFi laptop, and some network busting software that is available on the Internet."

    Don't you exercise MAC flush access lists on your WiFi access point/router? Short of modifying the hardware to clone the MAC address of the WiFi cards in your home, this blocks others from connecting.

    I possess my home WiFi LAN set up that artery and possess never had anyone access my LAN. I furthermore exercise a distinct SSID that is not advertised along with 256-bit WEP encryption.

    73,Mike

      RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! And before you had WiFi to fullfil your"intellectual" interest in 2.4 gig propagationdid you expend a lotta time evesdropping on thewireless phones up there-- All in the interest of science of course?   RE: WiFi overshoots the Ham World!   by K1YDA on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Another thought, I deem WiFi could subsist just the thing to set the lid (no pun) on BPL in many areasbut is bragging about the weaknesses in the WiFi system going to serve or Hurt the BPL interests sell theirstuff? If WiFi really takes off are they going to possess to give up a band to it just to withhold BPL at bay?   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC8VWM on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I possess installed my Wifi behind my firewall router.

    My network is therefore inaccesable through the WiFi transciever to my PC's.

    This arrangement provides for additional security and keeps my networked PC's out of the "loop" through the "external" WiFi system.

    Users that can hack past the WEP security feature on my Wifi transciever will only find themselves up against the router's firewall. They might access the outside internet connection, but thats about it.

    They would possess the identical flush of vicissitude gaining access into my network from the "outside" using the Wifi connection, as they would if they tried it remotely from some situation over the internet.

    Not a likely proposition.

    In fact, I can even leave the WIFi tranciever wide open with microscopic worry. The worst case scenerio is that they might net access and exercise my internet connection.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWM

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Don't you exercise MAC flush access lists on your WiFi access point/router?" (WA3KYY)

    Thanks for making that point. Yes, I achieve now. I foolishly thought I could lock my barn with a hasp and a nail, but discovered the difficult artery the only artery to withhold the horse thieves out is with true locks. In other words, WEP lonesome is not enough. Of course, MAC flush access lists are not foolproof either, since anybody really equipped for hacking in can find a artery through spoofing, if nothing else.

    I would hearten experimenters to tweak or modify their hardware and software for new applications or better performance. My initial post here was based on the language used by KB1KKC, "wardrivers", "guerilla networkers", "hackers", All of which mention these days to individuals intent on defeating security measures and/or surreptitiously using services installed by and paid for by someone else. At one time "hacking" did add up to about the identical thing as invert engineering, but the signification has changed because of what many "hackers" did with their resulting information.

    It's simply that I don't expect to possess someone who is uninvited and unwelcome picknicking in my back yard, even without my knowledge. And it seems that the only solution is to build a bigger fence.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Joel (KE7CDV), There is nothing that limits these guys from doing similar researches (as some possess claimed to subsist involved in) on dabbler Radio. In fact, there is a sturdy exigency for them to modest away from the toy RF stuff they are playing with, and achieve true microwave studies.

    There is a lot of SHF spectrum out there that could subsist used for some really wide bandwidth tall baud rate communication. The regulations achieve not forestall this! If they are worried about that, just drop an e-mail to the FCC to recommend them the communication protocall they intend to use, and zipzap, travel to town!

    I will observation further after I possess read the comfort of the most recent commentaries!

    WA6BFH 18:57 UTC

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    Looks affection the no coders, WIFI and the BPL'ers want to net rid of ham radio. WOW, ham radio is going down in defeat. Is there no-one to save the hobby?

    .:

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by K4IQT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Where is Andy Kaufman when they exigency him??? (Mighty Mouse)

    .....Oh....

    Well, in that case, where is John Kerry when they exigency him???

    .....Oh....

    Sorry to hear that, too.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="w6th">Looks affection the no coders, WIFI and the BPL'ers want to net rid of ham radio. WOW, ham radio is going down in defeat. Is there no-one to save the hobby?</quote>

    Yeah, it's called you and everyone in the community. It starts by getting off their religious wars about CW and what is considered "real dabbler Radio". The spectre of BPL is real. They can fight amongst ourselves and lose the ARS or drudgery together.

    /me disgusted with the implication that my licence class = my worth in dabbler Radio.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Lets peep at this from a different angle for a minute. To paraphrase Brian's first thought (not to set words in your mouth kid) 'Wow, this WiFi stuff is really cool, Ham's should embrace this, afterall how else can anyone experiment with SHF'. He could possess scratched his chin and asked himself, 'how could I build up a really frosty broad bandwidth communications system, that would beat the pants off this WiFi stuff'?

    Several years ago my club started to develop a tall hasten broad bandwidth 'Communications Data Project'. The system involved the exercise of 10 GHz Gunnplexer transceivers, of the kind typically institute in commercial door openers, affection those institute on the doors of grocery stores. These units provided about 20 to 100 mW into a Horn antenna with 10's of dB's of gain. They furthermore institute a collection of minute parabolic dish antennas, about the size of a Frisbee, that would possess added some 30 dB's to the RF discontinuance of the hardware.

    We designed a very nice I.F. (thats Intermediate Frequency) circuit board at 50 MHz (another minimally utilized Ham band). These boards incorporated the power supply, and furthermore the modulator for the Gunnplexer. Additional realestate was provided for on the PCB's to allow other logic circuitry to subsist easily built up by the experimenter. Also, the filter network on the I.F. could subsist unplugged on a submerge header, and replaced with a Murata 6 KHz bandwidth filter, so as to execute the I.F. furthermore a very cute microscopic DX receiver on 6 Meters. I was laying out a 6 Meter transmitter board, waiting for replies to approach in on the project.

    We were offering the Gunnplexers free of impregnate for anyone who purchased an I.F kit. They were selling these kits at cost! THEY HAD NO TAKERS! You can soundless find the write-ups of their plans on the Internet, achieve a Google search. The only interest shown was from some European Ham's that wanted only the Gunnplexers, which they would not subsist tax'ed into oblivion for importing, because those were scrap surplus. U.S. Ham's showed no interest at all!

    I could travel on to point out the fallicy in the concept that "Hackers", or "Crackers" are really a benign bunch but, I'm certain All these hackers possess read, "Masters of Deception" by Michelle Slatalla and Joshua Quittner. This engage sits on the shelf next to my dabbler Radio "Handbook", my Shrader on "Electronic Communication" and other books on radio and technology.

    .- .-. .--- --- .... -. (the first digital mode)

      Hackers vs Crackers, gladden learn the difference.   by K9DI on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Hi,Wayne K9DI es Leader Dog Riot here. I've beenreading this thread and one glaring oversight stands out.The perjorative exercise of the term "hacker". Hackers are not evil or malicious. The malicious ones are known as "crackers".The definition of a hacker is someonewanting to learn, experiment and explore a topic (usually used in conjunction with computers). By this definition every ham that modifies a rig, makes an antenna, or just tinkers with their gear to net the best performance out of it is a "hacker".A "cracker", on the other hand (like Kevin Mitnick), is someone that exploits known or newly discovered flaws in hardware or software to achieve malicious things.The above definitions are loosely paraphrased from the original jargon file.Vy 73deWayne K9DIk9di (at) k9di (dot) orgP.S. disdainful to subsist a "Hacker" (in the classical sense)   RE: Hackers vs Crackers, gladden learn the differen   by KC8VWM on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wayne has a sound point.

    I recollect when I ran a BBS in the 1980's that the term "Hacker" was actually a person that was highly respected and knowledgable about early PC's and thier software applications.

    I even recollect one of the first computer stores I ever seen was actually called:

    "Harry the Hacker Computers"

    The name denoted a friendly situation with knowledgeable staff.

    Later on after the "Mitnick" case, the term "hacker" took a downturn because of the mainstream media's new interpretation.

    I deem the term "Hacker" was later replaced with the word "Guru" Essentially, they are suppositious to add up to the identical exact thing.

    Perhaps "Guru" will become a baleful word someday just affection "Hacker" did.

    73

    Charles - KC8VWMLatenight BBSFidonet 221:00: ?? I forget now..lol

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I institute the exact subpage on the Tech Bench Elmers web site that refers to the Microwave Data Project (which was offered in 1997 by the way).

    http://www.geocities.com/SiliconValley/2775/microwave_notice.html

    73 all! I deem I've had enough of this line of conjecture! de John

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    KB1JCY

    Don't feel baleful Doug, you can shove license down my throat. I can endure that. perceive you when I net to Berlin, NH.

    73, W6TH

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by N8EKT on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I AM A HAM THAT furthermore WORKS FOR A ISP.WE possess BEEN INSTALLING 900MHZ, 2.4GHZ, AND 5.8GHZ WIFIFOR SEVERAL YEARS.IT SEEMS TO ME THE HAMS possess CLEARLY DROPPED THE BALL WHEN IT COMES TO WIRELESS DATA AND THESE BANDS.WITH THE RF POWER LIMITS HAM'S ARE ALLOWED ON THESE BANDS, Great COVERAGE COULD subsist HAD AT A REASONABLE COST.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="w6th">KB1JCY

    Don't feel baleful Doug, you can shove license down my throat. I can endure that. perceive you when I net to Berlin, NH.

    73, W6TH</quote>

    My what a constructive post. W6TH r0x0rz teh titanic one !!11!!1 :rolleyes:

    Who's shoving stuff down your throat? license is a preference you make, OM. You can pick to withhold things poignant forward or engage in a jihad. I've chosen to hump forward.

    The point is that the continuing jihad attitude is not serving the ARS. It's simple QRM and people cease communicating about key issues affection licence resturctuing and recruiting the next generation of amateurs. achieve you harmonize that the ARS is in jeopardy of being wiped off the air? achieve you thing the flame wars on boards affection this one are helping their cause?

    73 de KB1JCY

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Fred tends to filter out obnoxious jerks who troll> QRZ, or who panoply a sturdy anti-ham attitude.

    It would subsist nice if that were true; and it is what Fred used to claim. But enough people possess called him on the dissimilarity between his claim and the reality of the site, that he has recently taken to giving a more honest explanation. You net bounced if you 'piss off' (Fred's term) one of the moderators.

    Glen, for examplle, flat out refused to sanction one of the most obnoxious jerks on the board, simply because he happened to harmonize with the jerk's position.

    On the other hand, Glen banned contributors that Glen himself had identified as sticking to the issues, simply because he disagreed with them.

    Fred, of course, has ever right to ban whomever he wants, but I'm lighthearted that he's now at least being honest about why he bans people.

    It's too baleful that so many people appear to deem that being allowed/banned on QRZ indicates anything other than a willingness to question sacred cows.

    It's even sadder that so many people deem that there's only one honest view of ham radio and that expressing any other view is "strong anti-ham".

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KB9YZL on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As irritating as I possess institute Marty to subsist in the past, I find that I possess to harmonize with him when he says:

    >>“It's even sadder that so many people deem that there's only one honest view of ham radio and that expressing any other view is "strong anti-ham".<<

    Kent CarrollKB9YZL“Appliance Operator”

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Sacred cows execute first-rate burgers, Marty. Pass the salsa. ;-)   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! KB1JCYDo you harmonize that the ARS is in jeopardy of being wiped off the air? achieve you thing the flame wars on boards affection this one are helping their cause?-------------------------------------------------

    No Doug, I don't believe that ham radio has anything to achieve with EHAM or QRZ.COM. As long as there is income coming into the Gov't, there will always subsist a inescapable interest to possess and to hold. They will possess ham radio as long as the mfg's are in the exigency of income as well. Ham radio is built around money and when there are no longer any buyers of ham equipment, ham radio will diminish. My conviction and I rob ham radio as I would a grain of salt as it is no longer ham radio but thrust to talk. These $10,000 radios are an instance and as long as there are buyers, there will always subsist ham radio.

    Then again, should ham radio become invalid, so what? They possess plenty of new ideas and inventions to withhold us occupied.

    .: 73, W6TH

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W6TH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend!

    AE6IP

    I heard from the grape vine that QRZ.COM could not composit and overloaded Fred's difficult drive and he couldn't afford another. So Fred deleted a few dozen with sorrow, but it had to subsist done.

    May subsist when he gets more donations he will rob All those back that he deleted. I certain hope so and being the sort of gentleman he claims to be, I am certain he will give All a second chance.

    .:

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > May subsist when he gets more donations he will rob all> those back that he deleted. I certain hope so and being> the sort of gentleman he claims to be, I am certain he> will give All a second chance.

    but will he give us All rides in his Cessna?

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KB1JCY on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <quote id="AE6IP">but will he give us All rides in his Cessna?</quote>

    Feh. minute planes and me don't mix.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Cessna-very pedestrian. Twin engine private jet is another.

    Moving right along. I understand many possess been kicked off of QRZ ,consider it a statement of free speech.

    802b is built into every new laptop. One cannot serve but hit the scan key. I net 3 open networks just by parking on WIFI CH-6.

    If a system is open, it is public access. I did not travel in a car. I just turned on my IBM laptop and the open networks appeared on my screen in my apt.

    Many that buy those 802B $70 routers from radio shack are just consumers. They possess no interest in ham radio. I got tired of getting my modem card ripped out when I moved the computer. I bought a router for my own use.

    No one has hacked me...yet. Many times it is just people's built in 802B auto activation, that discontinuance up in my router. I achieve not exigency 12megabit wide connections.

    What many hams ARE doing to fight BPL, simply leave thier wireless router open. My electric company is going to proffer BPL for $35/month.

    Having an open system is not always ignorance.My 802.b router always on, is a deterent to my neighbors getting BPL. Rat Shack furthermore sells the booster amplifiers. I possess no concept what the power output is.

    That is where I perceive Ham Radio falling into WIFI asBPL prevention. Nothing more, nothing less.

    I furthermore recollect when a Hacker was just a difficult working computer operator. They would peep for open doors on the internet. They would achieve NO HARM.

    The hacker of today is disdainful to subsist a silver collarcriminal. Very unfortunite indeed. Robin Hood gave back to the poor.

    The silver collar hacker will hump on to bunco, electronic credit card theft, and getting extra minutes out of stolen pre-paid cell phones.

    As others pointed out 900MHZ, 1.2, and 2.4 gig were ham radio frequencies. exercise it or lax it. The identical could befall with HF. Perhaps the FCC will legalize those 100W 10-12M radio's. It would subsist affection GMRS for truckers.

    Try 10M from time to time. It can subsist great. It can subsist dead.

    Bottom line is that any other under utilized band will subsist taken away.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KA4KOE on November 12, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I affection my wifi 802.11b network. peep at my profile picture on QRZ (I haven't been banned, mainly because QRZ is a impecunious second to Eham, and I don't frequent it), and you'll perceive my D Link router.

    My wife can surf from her laptop in bed, and says the wireless card for her laptop was the best gift I've given her.

    Feeleep

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KC8ZTJ on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Wait a minute, seems affection I just took a test that talked about radio amateurs and radio control. I must possess missed something. Hmmm. That said, I would possess to agree. Wifi is a kindred spirit. I possess been in PDA users group meetings where they discussed yagi antennas and signal propagation. The dissimilarity in the PDA user group and my Ham Radio group is largely a matter of age.   RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AC0H on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<"Why bother with a license to restrict you when you can possess much more actual fun without endlessly arguing over rules & seeking approval.">>

    Maybe they exigency to question the question, why achieve people deem it's "fun" driving around trying to crash into unprotected or mis-managed WiFi networks?

    What happens when these people achieve net licenses? How will they appropriate into a hobby that DOES require following "rules and seeking approval"?

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA6BFH on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! WiFi is a 'kindred spirit to Ham Radio' -- give me a flipping crash -- LOL! I possess been to some of these Pringles can sessions. Its like, wow man, it really seemed to drudgery better when I stood on my head! Thats their concept of 'signal propagation studies'.

    I'm more worried about the Ham radio community though with comments like, 'try 10 Meters, sometimes it works first-rate but, sometimes not. How about researching siganl propagation to learn about Sporadic E layer propagation, or how the Earth/Sun position works over the various months of the year and can enhance F layer skip, even as they decline in the 11 year sunspot cycle.

    I liked AC0H's comment, basically begging the question 'why achieve they want people that are wedded to breaking the rules'. They possess lost much of the SHF spectrum! They will lose more unless they develop really frosty uses and practices on it ourselves. Of course, that does not appropriate easily into the new Ham Radio view on plug and play!

      RE: their bands, their interference   by KC0LTV on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! What this thread is showing is the ham radio community's unwillingness to net with the times, something they exigency to achieve if they wish to survive! There's nothing wrong with WiFi as a hobby. With ham radio, one could rob handicap of their allocation here by using the higher powers they are allowed to use. Of course, the whiny, close-minded, and judgmental press will perceive 2.4 Ghz as kiddie-land to subsist avoided in lieu of the "real" 1200 bps VHF packet links the old-timers use...   RE: their bands, their interference   by K4RAF on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Maybe they exigency to question the question, why achieve people deem it's "fun" driving around trying to crash into unprotected or mis-managed WiFi networks?"

    *** tall Horse Alert*** Where is wardriving defined as "trying to crash into networks"?

    AirSnort/NetStumbler is the automated logging of Access Points, SSID's, Signal Strength, signal-to-noise, channel & if the AP is running WEP. If you add a GPS to the setup, you can map the results of any signal survey using approved mapping programs. I exercise my laptop in the truck without ever having to touch anything, much affection cellular drive testing.

    No "breaking in" involved, no harm done. As someone already said, if you can associate to an open network, you are being invited to exercise the connection. What does ham radio proffer in parallel that isn't at least 20 years old? Packet? : )

    Perhaps you might try to educate yourself before your broad glance runs out of rosey paint for your tired traditional cliches'...

      listen, you immature punks   by NN2U on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As a member in first-rate standing of the CWA (the Century Wireless Association), I feel that no-code, WiFi and BPL will subsist the ruination of ham radio.

    Of course, in 1910 I predicted that wireless telephony would subsist the downfall ot the radio hobby, and personally traveled to the home of Dr. Lee DeForest, set fire to a bag of dog poop, knocked on his door and ran away.

    Following the second World War, against my stern warnings, ham radio operators began using sole sideband. Suddenly their precious bands were filled with unintelligible gibberish. Were their government not assiduous with Korea and Joe Stalin's commies, they doubtless would possess taken away their bands due to raw misuse and abominable operating procedure.

    All the so-called "advances" from then to today possess steadily chipped away at the cornerstone of dabbler radio. all portions of their bands are now filled with odd bleeps, chirps and deedle-deedles that somehow or other translate into idle text chitchat when connected to one of those infathomable computing boxes. This union of electric calculating box and ham radio transmitters is surely the drudgery of the devil, and a major contributor to the weakening virtuous fabric of their nation.

    All you immature whippersnappers appear to custody about is "connectivity," as if ham radio was All about bringing people together. Of course, they honest hams know that dabbler radio is really about exchanging signal reports, gas prices, rainfall amounts, and minute details of their ongoing physical deterioration. That and spending the better fragment of every weekend screaming "CQ CONTEST" into their trusty traditional Astatics until we're blue from want of oxygen.

    Every day, at 3 pm, I connect my honorable dabbler friends in the Greater Springfield Traffic Net And Grim Reaper Roll Call, and for two hours a day they greet one another with a hearty round of "no traffic"s and "any further check-ins?" This is the honest public service for which dabbler radio was created, and they are disdainful to subsist on the ready in the very true likelihood that an emergency takes out every landline, cellphone, coaxial cable, fiber optic pipe, public-service repeater, and VHF handheld in the United States.

    We carry on this thankless tradition while you immature hoodlums are roaming around the neighborhoods in your trucks attacking the computing machines of people you don't even know with killer viruses and electric mail messages offering discounts on potions which unnaturally stimulate the male sexual organs.

    You should subsist ashamed of yourselves. That is not the spirit of dabbler radio.

    Very soon my lifelong predictions will approach honest and they will All lose their wonderful hobby to a generation of tinkerers who possess no respect for the countless hours they possess spent sitting in their cellars proverb nothing to one another.

    Bah!

    Yours in disgust,

    Elbert T. Grumpinfutz(call withheld by request)

      RE: their bands, their interference   by K4IQT on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "No 'breaking in' involved, no harm done. As someone already said, if you can associate to an open network, you are being invited to exercise the connection."

    CJ, the problem is that most of those folks who are running open networks achieve not know it - they just bought a WAP at Best Buy and a card for their laptop, and are unaware that any wardriver can access their open network.

    There is nothing wrong with locating the networks, hunting them, measuring them, documenting them or whatever, but many wardrivers are looking for a network to explore. That is, to most people, electronic trespassing - just because they "left the door unlocked". They may possess personal data on shared resources on their network, and deem they are protected just because they possess routers on their wireless and broadband links, and maybe some easily-breakable firewalls on their clients.

    BTW, it's keen how this thread has meandered away from WiFi and now borders on the future of dabbler radio!

    <chuckle>

    --K4IQTTerry

      RE: their bands, their interference   by AC0H on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <<"There is nothing wrong with locating the networks, hunting them, measuring them, documenting them or whatever, but many wardrivers are looking for a network to explore. That is, to most people, electronic trespassing - just because they "left the door unlocked". They may possess personal data on shared resources on their network, and deem they are protected just because they possess routers on their wireless and broadband links, and maybe some easily-breakable firewalls on their clients.">>

    Exactly.

    Most wardrivers roam around town trying to find WiFi hotspots which is fine and good. Most of them furthermore mark the best signal spots. Why if not to approach back to try and ILLEGALLY access the network?

    This has nothing to achieve with an ISP, individual, or company, (Starbucks comes to mind) from offering their network freely. We're talking about people sneaking around with frequency counters, GPS recievers, and laptops trying to access closed networks. modest and simple.

    <<"Perhaps you might try to educate yourself before your broad glance runs out of rosey paint for your tired traditional cliches'.">>

    OK sonny I'll achieve that.Oh wait,..........I achieve this stuff for a living, keeping punks out of networks I mean.

      RE: their bands, their interference   by W4CNG on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! You don't exigency frequency counters and GPS receivers to find the networks, just a simple handheld device called a PDA with WiFi. BTW, anyone who thinks 50Watt output power on a network works, better deem more than twice, reason who cares if you can subsist heard 20 miles away from that Mountain-top location when you cannot hear the 200MW laptop 15 miles away trying to talk back. Sounds affection an Aligator 2 meter repeater to me, does not quite add up. Wireless in more than one profile is here to stay, there are lots of varieties to ride on.Steve W4CNG Surfing the free and abundant Spots.   Hug a WiFi-er today   by W2EV on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Steve wrote, "...anyone who thinks 50Watt output power on a network works, better deem more than twice..."

    Right on, Steve. This is e-x-a-c-t-l-y why it is advantageous for dabbler Radio to find a artery to embrace those who are exploiting the Part15 users of the WiFi frequencies. They possess learned many lessons over the years...lessons that can subsist built upon.

    1. --- Cellular radio and APRS are living examples of where tall power and long distances for the purpose of uplinking users to a network are baleful ideas. On the other hand, it's a Great artery to link "cells" of activity together...as a backbone.

    2. --- FM Repeater sub-bands and their regional coordination are living examples of how to blow spectrum and setup unnecessary conflict. On the other hand, a national blueprint for digital spectrum usage could serve us well.

    Why achieve WiFi DX enthusiasts achieve what they do? For the identical reason they achieve what they do. It's fun and exciting. They are limiting their ranks by taking a "holier than thou" viewpoint of their activity.

    Embrace the WiFi experimenters. They are nick from the identical cloth. Elmer them into the hobby and inject more energy into your club than a bottle full of Geritol ever could.

    Ev Tupis, W2EV

      Wrong poop   by KA4KOE on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "Of course, in 1910 I predicted that wireless telephony would subsist the downfall ot the radio hobby, and personally traveled to the home of Dr. Lee DeForest, set fire to a bag of dog poop, knocked on his door and ran away."

    Dr. Lee didn't invent radio telephony. You should've vandalized Fessenden's lab. ITS All YOUR FAULT...WRONG HOUSE, YOU DUMMY!!!

    FEELEEEP

      RE: Hug a WiFi-er today   by WA6BFH on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! W2ev. Ev, contact me directly, and I will serve you with any explanation I can muster with such issues.

    73! de JohnPSIs there a reason why your name and callsign are so similar?

      RE: Wrong poop   by AE6IP on November 13, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > nick me some slack. I was only 9.

    Your previous post was one of the funniest things I've ever read on a ham forum. Thanks,

    Marty

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! yEah, so what they meanderd,we went out of scope. they took other sociable issue's to the table. BFD!It is indeed fun.   Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KA2YBP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Looking down the nose of your code-requirements and degrading hobby, you enlighten NO to WIFI'ers... You said no to CBers, you said no to codeless licenses... perceive a pattern. Why not embrace WIFI, it is the newest blood, perhaps the terminal wave of people to net interest in a 'hobby', simply said... It's wireless, isn't that what the ham hobby is about. OOOps, I forgot, it's a service. I listen to the Indiana traffic net meet daily on 75m, roll convoke list of their telephone directory of anyone who has checked into their net... Bla Bla.. No traffic today, titanic suprise. Strap the code requirements nigh to you and wait for the next contact. Ever peep at the medium age of a ham, this number will never execute infinity, but it's poignant up. net with the program.   Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Brien, sometimes you possess to set the shoe on the otherhand.(hi-hi)

    Sometimes a repeater club may possess had peril with a confirmed jammer. They paid for the repeater, duplexer, antenna(s) snd difficult line.

    If they furthermore possess to pay rent for the space the expenses can net very high. Lets enlighten it is a 60W repeater. If they are in an zone with lots of Imod,they possess to exercise a PL. It could soundless subsist public.If it

    If it is DPL, then chances are it is a private machine. You can set up your own repeater some day,and subsist just as exclusive.

    In NYC All repeaters possess to exercise PL. So much IMOD that carrier squelch will not do. Most of the new radio's allow you you scan for the PL or DPL.

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by VE3WGO on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! At least somebody is making used of the 13 cm (2300-2450 MHz) band. Hams are definitely not overloading it, that's for sure!

    Comparing the 802.11b channelization, http://home.comcast.net/~sofa.spud/802.11_freqs/802.11freqs.html

    with 13cm ham bandplans such as the one they possess here in Canada, http://www.rac.ca/service/13cmrev1.htm

    it can subsist seen that WiFi Channels 1 through 6 drop into their band.

    We exigency to peep into the WiFi transceiver cards to perceive if they are adaptable to any modes other than the OFDM that they use. Maybe it's not workable (single chip does almost everything), but it's at least worth trying...

    Rather than fearing, rejecting, or bashing WiFiers as some possess done on this thread, they really exigency to question these WiFi experimenters how it's done.

    They possess innovated. possess you seen the Pringle's chip can waveguide antenna? first-rate gain figures. WiFiers came up with that.

    Lots of first-rate stuff is on the net about WiFi technology. Here is a site that includes a huge treasure trove of UHF/microwave ham radio and WiFi experimeters info and construction articles, at the Green Bay PPR site at http://www.qsl.net/n9zia/

    Take it All in folks. If hams aren't using the bands, there are lots of other groups who are...

    WiFi furthermore operates in the 5.8 GHz band. WiMAX (see this month's CQ Magazine for a Great introductory article by KA3JIJ) will furthermore operate in 2.5, 3.5, 5.8, and higher bands, inside or adjacent to ham bands. it is the next coming wireless trend, and is just making it throuhg the international standards bodies now, and some companies are getting the technology worked out. Hopefully this will lead to cheaper, more readily available components and edifice blocks for hams to build on, just affection military surplus did in the 50s and 60s.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AB2M on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There were a few posts about a zillion or two back that were talking about how some folks possess "secured" their 802.11 networks from hackers/crackers/miscreants (choose your term).

    Let's net a few things straight:

    MAC Address filtering is ZERO security except for someone who is clueless about WiFi. Almost any WLAN card can subsist ASSIGNED a MAC address. In Linux, this is a trivial one-line command. Someone who wants to subvert your security will sniff your WLAN (easy!), net the required MAC addresses, and exercise one. Unless you monitor that WLAN 24x7, you will NEVER know.

    To the OM who installed his WiFi outside his firewall and is gay that the only thing that can subsist accessed is the Internet, let me pose a few scenarios for you. Let me know which one you feel more cozy with:

    A. Your WLAN is used to ship a zillion pieces of spam, causing your ISP to cancel your account.

    B. Your WLAN is used to perpetrate an bombard against a corporate or government network. It will subsist traced back to you. Or, maybe it's just used to launch the latest virus or worm.

    C. Your WLAN is used to traffic in child pornography, which is then noticed as fragment of an FBI sting operation. FBI agents approach to your door with a warrant and haul you and your PC off.

    If you deem that spammers, hackers/crackers, and pedophiles aren't doing this today, then I hint a lengthy session of Googling.

    73, Joe AB2M

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "We exigency to peep into the WiFi transceiver cards to perceive if they are adaptable to any modes other than the OFDM that they use."

    Why achieve they exigency to reinvent some parallel to OFDM?

    If the ASIC chipset only supports OFDM, where is the preference going to approach from?

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JSR on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Marty asked, "but will he give us All rides in his Cessna?"Only if they smoke the peace Piper with him.It would help, also, to senc him a Belanca Check.After all, it's only Mooney!

    Sorry, Marty. The Devil made me achieve that! ;-)

    73, Cal K4JSR

      RE: listen, you immature punks   by K4JSR on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Grumpinfutz for FCC Chairman!

    Until I read this thread, I thought that Wife Eye iswhat KG4RJM used on me at hamfests to withhold me from buying too many goodies!

    You youngsters deem things are tough now? Back in the day when W4CNG and I soundless had hair on top of ourheads, they were soooooo tough that they burned their own warts off with their spark gap transmitters!

    Wife eye, indeed! Next thing they will want is for usto net licenses and maybe even know something!

    Hey, Gruminfutz, you recommend 'em that they are All a bunch of girlie-hams! school these dank behind the ears types some respect! This is serious!Trust me!

    Go away and leave me alone, now! I exigency to pout alone!

    A. Nony MouseRat Cheer, Ga.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > MAC Address filtering is ZERO security except for> someone who is clueless about WiFi.

    Yes, no, and maybe. MAC filtering, by itself, only reduces your exposure slighlty. However, when used with other techniques, it helps. They only allow two MAC addresses here, and both machines are usually on. So if someone attempts a spoof, it become apparrent very quickly.

    WiFi security sucks. Key size doesn't matter much, as there are bugs in key exchange protocols that can subsist exploited for replay attacks. There are proprietary tricks that help, but they limit you to one vendor's hardware.

    As I've said, my technique involves reducing the purview of my WAP, so that it can't subsist heard outside of house and yard. If you wanna exercise my wifi, you gotta approach onto my property.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 14, 2004 Mail this to a friend! > Sorry, Marty. The Devil made me achieve that! ;-)

    bad devil. no cookie. ;)

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by W6BKY on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! NN2U,

    "Very soon my lifelong predictions will approach honest and they will All lose their wonderful hobby to a generation of tinkerers who possess no respect for the countless hours they possess spent sitting in their cellars proverb nothing to one another."

    Well said!!

    - but -

    In your cogent description of "Real Hams", you forgot to embrace those of us who know "real" Ham radio so well that they no longer bother to net on the air at all.

    Heck, most ;aof us "real" Hams don't even possess a rig or antenna (the retirement home doesn't allow antennas, so why possess a rig?).

    We simply possess their Ham Club meetings at their favorite restaurant and affection endless re-telling of the identical "good traditional days" stories for the umpteenth time.

    Sometimes, the stories even possess something to achieve with radio, or communications, or some such - but not often.

    Now, that's true Ham radio!

    I could enlighten lots more, but it's time for my pills.

    73, Dick, W6BKY

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! From front page of http://www.dailywireless.org

    Wi-LAN today introduced its pre-WiMax LIBRA MX, for Wireless OFDM in the 3.5 GHz range...

    http://www.wi-lan.com/products/libramx.htm

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, for what its worth. I originally got into ham back when the internet was not as huge and omnipresent as it is now.I had completely gotten out of HAM until I got into 802.11 through drudgery ( i am a net engineer ) . Now Im All stoked to read about the nitty gritty modulation techniques etc. Another friend of mine at drudgery who is into digital communications, packet etc has been helping spur me along and now I just picked up my first HT since I gave away or sold off my gear about two years ago. Knowing basic radio theory really helps out and I cant wait as 802.11 progresses and I net to read about All of the killer inovations that it provides. Maybe one day I can find time to build some home rolled microwave digital gear.IMHO, if you want ham to grow, execute it relavent to the current generation. 802.11 and microwave communication has never been more relavent and embracing it and teaching people about ethics , antenna and rf theory would achieve more for the ham community then anything EVER has.

    73's

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! A quick tip, exercise WPA with radius, possess it renew the key ever 5 minutes. That pretty much eliminates every applicable security exploit out there. If you are true parinoid you could exercise a VPN client/server and some clevor routing to nail it down even tighter. Dont allow excess coverage and execute first-rate exercise of directional antennas if you want to net in a inescapable fragment of the yard.Just my .02, now back to the topic.   RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KC0GQT on November 15, 2004 Mail this to a friend! There are a few diffrent types of hackers...There are those who try to net into systems for the fun of it. A first-rate network admin might subsist called a hacker.

    There are those who achieve it to cop information.

    Some are called White Hat Hackers who are on the first-rate side and report security stuff to the admins, then there are the Black Hat Hackers who are the baleful people.WiFi can subsist used for first-rate things and bad. It just depends on who uses it I guest.

    Check out 2600, 2600.com

    And for those who enlighten WiFi is NOT dabbler radio, you better check your facts. Channels 1-6 drop right on the 2.4g band.

    Hope this helps!

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! wHITE HAT BLACKHAT

    Some are just SILVER COLLER criminals!They can mess up your system if you achieve not possess explorer and 3erd party fire wall.

    They assemble sensitive corperate info.Some of these WAR DRIVERS achieve not exigency the money either.They just affection anarcy.

    A few are as baleful as terrorist. In fact, L-cheesa has been known to possess cosidered messing with WLANS.

    I am not proverb All at all. I will often scan any location for an open NETWORK. No war-driven either.All the 802a/b/g cards possess a scan funtion for networks open to the public.

    Some are open to attract customers, affection STAR SCHMUCKS. Some are just so non savvy about their $79 blue box from Radio SHCLOCK. Plug and Play.They possess not a clue of who could mess them up, or cop sensitive info.

    It is affection the traditional analog cell phones one could receive on a scanner. Now blocked!

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA2JJH on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! wHITE HAT BLACKHAT

    Some are just SILVER COLLER criminals!They can mess up your system if you achieve not possess explorer and 3erd party fire wall.

    They assemble sensitive corperate info.Some of these WAR DRIVERS achieve not exigency the money either.They just affection anarcy.

    A few are as baleful as terrorist. In fact, L-cheesa has been known to possess cosidered messing with WLANS.

    I am not proverb All at all. I will often scan any location for an open NETWORK. No war-driven either.All the 802a/b/g cards possess a scan funtion for networks open to the public.

    Some are open to attract customers, affection STAR SCHMUCKS. Some are just so non savvy about their $79 blue box from Radio SHCLOCK. Plug and Play.They possess not a clue of who could mess them up, or cop sensitive info.

    It is affection the traditional analog cell phones one could receive on a scanner. Now blocked!

      As with radio, it is All about INTENT !   by K4RAF on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As with any radios, you can play "what IF..." All day. I could exercise a ham radio to communicate or to jam. Does that execute All hams jammers?

    The following statement, from NetStumbler's author, states his intent clearly to underscore more common ground than most acknowledge. This ground lies unclaimed by most of the folks posting in this thread:

    {Shipley}: "Most recently I invented Wardriving, while I am not the first person to travel out and search for open wireless LANS (a few before me ventured around with in a with a laptop, pencil & paper manualy scribbling notes). I was first to automate it All with dedicated software and a GPS. When I started this project the usage of WEP was around 15%, after going public with my findings, just one year later, WEP usage is now about 33%. This is first-rate to know, that people are getting the message."

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KG4ZIE on November 16, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I am a computer guy and I exercise 802.11 technologies daily at home and at work. At home I even exercise it for dabbler radio how you may ask. Well about 1000ft away from my house is my friends repeater. It just so happens that this repeater is on IRLP. I know many hams achieve not affection IRLP and enlighten that it is not radio however I disagree as I soundless exercise my radio to access it. To net this node on the air they exercise a 802.11 link. Not only achieve they elope the IRLP through this link but they exercise it for VoIP (Voice over IP which is basically a phone line running across the internet). So basically from a 802.11 link they provide people with a artery to talk All over the world and the exercise of a phone. In their situation they can not get/afford a internet connection and/or a phone line up on the site so this setup works Great for us.   RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! NY7Q told us:"SIMPLE, It is not ham radio. wifi operators usually achieve what they want and crash the rules...so I don't want them around."

    Exactly what fragment 15 rules possess they broke? Content?

    "Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple.."

    You best net out from behind those vacuum tubes and rob a peep at some of the radios being advertised in QST.... they peep alot affection computers to me!

      Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, once again I should possess read the entire thread before my earlier content, because I am now embarassed to subsist fragment of this. More on this later.

    The one thing I institute interesting, in this "WiFI'ers vs. Ham's" debate is most of the sedate WiFi'ers are hams operating under fragment 15. I did a poll of the BAWUG (Bay zone Wireless Users Group) and fully 40% on the list. And of the true mover's and shakers, 3 out of 4 held dabbler radio licenses.

    What this tells me is one simple thing. Their hobby has cancer is is being eaten from within. Those with closed minds who wish to re-live their childhoods of vacumm tubes and duck and cover drills.

    Instead of trying to compare "WiFi'ers" to CB'ers (and how many of you came here from those ranks??) they should subsist embacing them. The condition of dabbler radio in the United States is a condition of embarassment. Quick, how many of those new and fancy HF digital modes where invented in the U.S.? Europes regulations, and acceptance of alternate modes, is much greater then the U.S. and it shows.

    Wake up dipshits.

    73

    Jeff wb8wka

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 18, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "The condition of dabbler radio in the United States is a condition of embarassment."

    This is indeed true, along with denial & it is cultural in nature. I possess institute considerable ham movements in the UK & Australia on the web. Much of the tinkering going on is outside the US (UK, Spain, Poland, Australia, etc...).

    In the end, it really seems silly to possess to net a license that cuts your faculty to fully utilize the utility of wifi.

    We possess a deep 'control' problem, driven by ruling over others, in an attempt to somehow or other appear 'superior'...

    Part 15: No content or WEP-like restrictions, just ERPPart 97: Higher power allowed but content restricted & no flush of "security" allowed

    Who are the CB'ers???

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KF4URO on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! You can apply the security on top of any modulation schema. I possess been very interested in playing with different modulation schemes since getting into 802.11 and then back into ham. I exigency to net in touch with that guy with the 10gig horn kits and perceive about getting one of those.We exigency at least a portion of the ham community to lead the away again, in modulations, antennas, and pretty much anything microwave or related. Lets declare packet departed and achieve something really keen affection a network of HAM 802.11 esque nodes that blanket all cities. Then they would possess the infrastructure to achieve anything. affection anything else in the world for HAM to grow they possess to linger relevant.   RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <"Ham radio is radio, computers are computers....its simple.."

    You best net out from behind those vacuum tubes and rob a peep at some of the radios being advertised in QST.... they peep alot affection computers to me! >

    Maybe you should read the description better, then. They are certainly NOT computers. They exercise computers, but they are not computers. Computers are a tool, nothing more. But using them maliciously, affection the so-called wi-fiers, is against All that is first-rate about ham radio. They should welcome them into their ranks only if they reform their ways.

    Ham radio has far, far more to proffer than computers ever will. After the hams before us brought computers into the home, they should exercise them as the tools they are.

    Re some of the terminology here, why has the term "wireless" approach back into vogue? That was the term for "radio" 100 years ago... why is it back?

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "But using them maliciously, affection the so-called wi-fiers, is against All that is first-rate about ham radio."

    Please cite examples when you execute accusations about this. achieve you even know of any of the community WiFi groups? recommend me exactly what is "malicious" about these WiFi'ers:

    http://andrewhitchcock.org/gallery/2003wirelessfieldday

    Yeap, that is right, those nasty illiterate WiFi'ers had their own province day.

    "We should welcome them into their ranks only if they reform their ways."

    Lets see, hang around with some illiterate traditional men stuck in the 50's, or achieve well-kept and frosty things with wireless and computers.....

    "Ham radio has far, far more to proffer than computers ever will."

    Us vs. them maybe? Wake up, computers are here and are fragment of the hobby. Ham radio has far far more to proffer when it embraces modern technology....

    "Re some of the terminology here, why has the term "wireless" approach back into vogue? That was the term for "radio" 100 years ago... why is it back?"

    Possibly because many of the things these guys are trying to do... message traffic, community networks, ect ect where the roots of ham radio back in its early days. Don't know.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by KB5WBH on November 20, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Would 900mhz subsist better? Don't know if the right gear is out there for it, just wondering since 2.4ghz is so approved with non hams.73Mike   Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by N1YRK on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! As far as the "hacking" and "guerrilla networking" goes, a few people here are using the wrong defenitions of "hack" to jump to a negative judgement on the value of these radio hobbyists. THe author of this article means "hack" in the pre- "WarGames"-movie meaning, which was someone who liked to mess around with technology in non-traditonal ways. I deem that THIS signification has much in common with ham radio. The OTHER signification of "hack" has more to achieve with pirate radio, cellphone services thieves, and people who jam others communications - i.e. the "bad guys".

    SO, with that cleared up - A couple of years ago I started a group called BAWIA - Boston zone Wireless Internet Alliance - http://www.bawia.org - to promote and coordinate activity in the the zone that the author speaks of. However, I possess institute a very low flush of technical competance in the RF discontinuance of things in the group as a whole. They exigency hams! Ham radio furthermore also needs the enthusiastic, immature new blood that this movement offers. So I hearten this cooperation!

    What I find alarming is among these hobbyists there is practically NO esteem given to lightening safety - arrestors are hardly ever seen! Another thing I possess been trying to educate people on is the RF loss in lengths of cheap cable at microwave frequencies. Many of the antennas sold at computer stores for home networking possess long lengths of generic cable that is artery too thin to give me any self-possession that the minute gain given by such a tiny antenna isn't wasted on the 15 feet of flimsy cable attaching it to the WiFi card!

    A fun project for "hacking" on is the MIT roofnet software, which forms a self-organizing "grid" a.k.a. "mesh" network from traditional PCs with a wireless card. perceive http://pdos.lcs.mit.edu/roofnet and http://www.bawia.org/meshax

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Lets see, hang around with some illiterate traditional men stuck in the 50's, or achieve well-kept and frosty things with wireless and computers.....

    WHAT illiterate traditional men in the 50s?? Check out my website - you will find my station (except for the TL-922) All solid condition and very advanced. Three networked computers are there doing All kinds of "cool things". BUT, All legal and above board, not hacking.

    "Ham radio has far, far more to proffer than computers ever will."

    <Us vs. them maybe? Wake up, computers are here and are fragment of the hobby. Ham radio has far far more to proffer when it embraces modern technology.... >

    AGAIN, it don't net any more modern than DSP and solid condition with imbedded microprocessors. Don't reprehend from a standpoint of ignorance, you'll net shot down every time.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WA2DYA on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! It has no relationship whatsoever to Ham Radio.

    --- CHAS

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! "It has no relationship whatsoever to Ham Radio"

    You're right...

    It is progressive, involves understanding RF, uses efficient antennas & is fun to experiment with...

    It is not related to ham radio, circa-2004 !!!

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4RAF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I furthermore forgot to mention, it has the devout interest of more than 700,000 people under the age of 18...

    Definately not ham radio related...

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <I furthermore forgot to mention, it has the devout interest of more than 700,000 people under the age of 18... >

    I find that VERY difficult to believe. It's just computers... a tool, not an avocation.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <It is progressive, involves understanding RF, uses efficient antennas & is fun to experiment with...

    It is not related to ham radio, circa-2004 !!! >

    Uhh, I deem you possess it backwards. You are describing ham radio, not wifi hacking. I doubt seriously if any of those understand RF: most computer hobbyists can't even spell it.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AE6IP on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! I deem this thread relies on too many loaded words and phrases. They should nick through the underbrush and net to the underlying question.

    Rather than terms affection "WiFi" and "Wardriving", let's talk about the underlying technology.

    "WiFi" is just a marketing name for a particular approach to very short purview radio networks. These nets, collectively, drop under the heading of 802.11 -- an IEEE subcommittee, and the standards produced by that subcoommittee.

    WiFi, and its competitor, bluetooth, were originally aimed at very short purview networks. Originally, bluetooth was intended for "body area" networks, while WiFi was intended for edifice zone networks.

    But it is the nature of computing networks that "local area" grows to encompass as great an zone as technically feasible.

    For WiFi, this means attempts to grow beyond the few hundred feet implicit in the original power/antenna designs, and perceive how far such networks can subsist extended.

    There are informal approaches, such as the infamous pringles can antenna, and there are more formal approaches, such as the consortium that is attempting to extend RF nets to the geographic scope that broadband networks currently have.

    Is this pertinent to dabbler radio? It could be, but it doesn't possess to be. If, as I contend, the dabbler radio hobby is now about enjoying anachronistic means of radio communication, notably HF and VHF/FM; then there is no intersection.

    If, on the other hand, if dabbler radio is about being on the RF communications leading edge, as those who affection to cite section 1a of the regs affection to claim, then attempts to extend WiFi are very much fruitful grounds for both dabbler radio hobbiests and for recruiting dabbler radio hobbiests from.

    After all, this is about as QRP as radio communications get, and it is, very much about things affection efficient antenna design, and frequency sharing.

    On the other hand, it is furthermore about what is, in reality, the great gap between the condition of the expertise in radio communications, and the condition of the expertise as practiced in dabbler radio.

    Which path this hobby takes at this fork in the road is entirely up to the hobbiests. I predict it will travel in the direction of nostalgia and anachronism -- and that's perefectly fine with me; since that's why I got involved in the hobby.

    The only danger is to travel down the one path while believing that the hobby is going down the other.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by AA6YQ on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! A computer is indeed a tool. So is a radio. Both are extensions of basic human capabilities -- computing, managing information, and communicating.

    The combination of wireless connectivity and distributed computing is producing an explosion of new opportunities. Those who affection glow-in-the-dark equipment, CW, and HF propagation are free to affection their nostalgia. Those interested in pushing forward are furthermore free to achieve so, and ought not subsist held back by the exigency to demonstrate mastery of commodity technology.

    Every transceiver built in 1950s incorporated parts made of steel and copper. Did dabbler radio exams of that era require knowledge of forging steel, or smelting copper? Of course not; such parts were available off-the-shelf, and could not subsist significantly improved by dabbler practitioners. The extrapolation to today's technology is obvious.

    I wrote my first computer program in 1968, designed my first commercially-released computer in 1972, and started writing dabbler radio software within months of getting my ticket in 1990. I affection DXing on the HF bands, and will continue to achieve so until I've confirmed every DXCC entity on every band between 160m and 6m, and on phone, CW, and RTTY. I redesigned my SB-220 for 8-band operation before replacing it with an AL-1200, which only fails to glow in the dim because its tube is ceramic and its meter lights are long blown. Creating and maintaining the freeware DXLab Suite has taught me a ton about user-driven software development, and helped stimulate my thinking about wireless mesh networks that exercise WiFi and ultra-wideband to create a communications fabric they could never achieve at HF.

    My point is that their hobby encompasses a broad purview of interests, and they are not mutually exclusive. You're not personally interested? No problem. Just don't dispirit those who are.

    73,

    Dave, AA6YQ

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 21, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "WHAT illiterate traditional men in the 50s?? Check out my website - you will find my station (except for the TL-922) All solid condition and very advanced."

    Your right, the medium ham in the 1950's at least built fragment of his station... just affection the medium WiFi hacker these days. Your station, while nice, looks entirely storebought.

    "BUT, All legal and above board, not hacking."

    You don't even know what hacking means. I am HONORED to subsist called a hacker. Means I possess a brain and I affection to experiment and learn how things work.

    Or achieve you add up to black hat hacking? OK, for the second time, gladden document the accusations you are making.

      RE: WiFi Yes, Hackers NO!   by KD7ZOX on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Well, I'm fragment of the "Computer Crowd," being 15, and I possess learned a lot abot networking, ecryption, 802.11b, 802.11g, and even the days of Token Ring, which uses coax cable to network(although I scout it as it is incredible unstable and slow). I'd affection to deem I possess first-rate ethics. I achieve not hack into others computers, although I am perfectly capable of it. My friend Al, KE7AUK, is furthermore someone who is first-rate with networks, and i got him interested in Ham Radio. It seems there might subsist a pattern here... I possess gotten my friend Jeremy interested, he works at IBM, and he's head of the network staff there. All of these people are first-rate people, and possess first-rate ethics. I deem many people nowadays don't possess enough faith in the newer generations.

    KD7ZOX

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <You're "right, the medium ham in the 1950's at least built fragment of his station... just affection the medium WiFi hacker these days. Your station, while nice, looks entirely storebought." >

    And you built your wifi boxes? What kindly of setup to you possess for making the ICs?

    I possess built many computers myself, absolutely no more difficult than integrating the various components of the station. BTW, the computer you perceive in the station photo (one of 3) is a homebrew, so I know what I am comparing. furthermore possess built several rigs over the years, both kit and my design (one of the kits is visible in the photo - the TenTec 6-meter rig.)

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <You don't even know what hacking means. I am HONORED to subsist called a hacker. Means I possess a brain and I affection to experiment and learn how things work>

    I know EXACTLY what hacking means. I possess been in involved in home computers for over 25 years, built my own back in early 80s. Ever read the engage "Hackers"?

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 22, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us:

    "And you built your wifi boxes?"

    Actually, yes. At least the software image for my WRT54-G's using the SVEASOFT and EWRT distro's (based on the LinkSys GPL code). furthermore quite a number of antennas as well as one amplifier. I noticed you even bought your Windom, which is a simple wire antenna (one of which I homebrewed for my HF ham station).

    "What kindly of setup to you possess for making the ICs?"

    Yeap, figures. You'd subsist the appliance operator in the 1950's who would furthermore asked the ham hacker of that era if he had refined the copper and mined the iron for the homebrew rigs of that era.

    "Also possess built several rigs over the years, both kit and my design (one of the kits is visible in the photo - the TenTec 6-meter rig.)"

    Good for you. Then why All the basely accusations against hams that want to experiment with WiFi? You realize twice I possess asked you to document your claims of law breaking, and twice you possess ignored them.

    Bottom line, if ham radio wants to survive, it has to subsist relevent to today's society. "WiFi hacking" and alliances with WiFi community networking groups can travel a long artery into making this happen.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend! And you built your wifi boxes?"

    Actually, yes. At least the software image for my WRT54-G's using the SVEASOFT and EWRT distro's (based on the LinkSys GPL code).

    Uhh, that's writing software (which I possess done - and marketed). Not quite the same.

    "Also quite a number of antennas as well as one amplifier. I noticed you even bought your Windom, which is a simple wire antenna (one of which I homebrewed for my HF ham station)."

    Who said I bought the Windom? I've built quite a few wire and other antennas, including helical, even. But a board affection this should not net personal, so let's cease that.==================================================

    "Bottom line, if ham radio wants to survive, it has to subsist relevent to today's society. "WiFi hacking" and alliances with WiFi community networking groups can travel a long artery into making this happen."

    Bottom line, they want people in this hobby/service who are inclined to operate within the rules. If "being pertinent to today's society" means they must accept society's current attitude that laws are purposeless if I don't want to ensue them (as in "Who are you to recommend me to slack down in the school zone?") then they possess only anarchy ahead ("the hacker ethic"). They possess had some Great people approach in from the other lawless group, but possess furthermore had some true problems from some of them who achieve not want to ensue the law. They don't exigency more.

    As I said before, I welcome All who are really interested in the hobby/service. But only if they blueprint to operate within established laws and norms. I really don't understand why that is such a barrier.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 23, 2004 Mail this to a friend! Another point: This is a service as well as a hobby. Often, in an emergency situation, they are working shoulder-to-shoulder with law enforcement personnel. (Done it many times.) How efficacious will they subsist if it gets known that they welcome lawbreakers into their ranks, without at least requiring reform?   RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend! k4jf claimed for the fourth time:

    "Bottom line, they want people in this hobby/service who are inclined to operate within the rules."

    and later said:

    "How efficacious will they subsist if it gets known that they welcome lawbreakers into their ranks, without at least requiring reform?"

    I've now asked you I believe 3 times to warrant this statement. You enlighten you don't want to net personal, yet you travel on and on with the accusations. I'm not proverb your wrong (or right), I'm just asking you to demonstrate your not full of shit and just a techno-rascist who doesn't want anyone in the hobby that doesn't deem the artery they do.

    But it certain seems that way. I guess your lucky you didn't elope into someone affection yourself back when you were playing CB back in the late 70's... not that you where doing anything illegal, but they achieve know how All those WiFi'ers are lawbreakers, just affection those CB'ers where, don't we?

    BTW, SOFTWARE is where radio is... not to enlighten I haven't designed the hardware (have a fragment 15 900mhz XE1202 radio in for testing for certification now).

    BTW2, you didn't enlighten "windom", you said "carolina windom" which is a storebought custom design windom, which RadioWorks holds an exclusive license to produce/advertize under that name.

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 27, 2004 Mail this to a friend! K4JF told us all:

    "You are describing ham radio, not wifi hacking. I doubt seriously if any of those understand RF: most computer hobbyists can't even spell it."

    Obviously your spell checker is broken then.

    Take a few of these web pages to your next ham meeting, and recommend me how many of the hams understand what these "wifi hackers" are doing:

    http://trevormarshall.com/waveguides.htmhttp://www.geocities.com/lincomatic/homebrewant.htmlhttp://martybugs.net/wireless/biquad/http://www.wireless.org.au/~jhecker/helix/http://www.netscum.com/~clapp/wireless.htmlhttp://www.olotwireless.net/catala/Building.htm

    and on and on...

    They inescapable display to know how to spell RF.

    Jim, you really exigency to net out of the house more. It is a intrepid new world out there, and at least in advancing the condition of the expertise on 2.4ghz, ham's are being given a elope for the money by the WiFi hacker's.

    I for one deem they should embrace them, rather then shun them affection you appear to advocate. Of course they exigency to ensue the rules, that goes without saying, but you've yet to cite any specific infractions you possess observed.

    All barbs aside, ham radio embraced "cb radio", affection it or not, back in the late 70's. There is no comparsion between the "WiFi hacker" and the CB'ers of the 70's. WiFi hackers are far more technically knowledgable then the CB'ers of the 70's and quite frankly, most hams today (when it comes to microwaves).

    They would subsist a Great asset to the hobby.

    And honestly, you shouldn't feel threatned by them. I doubt if many would subsist interested in voice or digital on 80 meters, they possess a specific goal in mind, and that goal is not ragchewing.

    But they are different then you. You'll exigency to deal with that.

    73

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by K4JF on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend! <Of course they exigency to ensue the rules, that goes without saying, but you've yet to cite any specific infractions you possess observed. >

    Thanks for the websites - they prove my point! The first one I looked up had disclaimers that enlighten this antenna I am describing is in violation of FCC rules, don't achieve it, etc., etc., etc. Kinda reminds me of the illegal CB linears sold exclusively to CBers with a titanic label "Illegal for CB use".

    Again - Amateurs are well-known (if imperfect) for self-policing, and they welcome All with an interest, IF and only IF, they forbear from illegal use. And since they harmonize on that point, where is the problem?

      RE: Where Does WiFi drop into the Ham World?   by WB8WKA on November 29, 2004 Mail this to a friend! The problem is you said they where lawbreakers, yet you possess repeatedly failed to provide one sole example...

    Do you even possess a clue? achieve you know what 15.23 even says? How about the recent liberalization of the fragment 15 rules to allow fuse and match?

    Jesus christ, you are exactly what is wrong with the hobby. Self rightous assholes who scare away anyone with half a brain.

    I give up. affection yourself.

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